BUff for extended classes

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Qembek
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Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Qembek »

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play this game as it is. those extended classes are weaker as trans classes and what? you have to deal with that and play them if you like. you want to change it now to make them even or better than trans jobs? and what will you say when 3rd class will be implemeneted? you will want another change to make them even with those? its a fail idea from the start.
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Re: BUff for extended classes

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Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Haelstrom »

Qembek wrote:-1

play this game as it is. those extended classes are weaker as trans classes and what? you have to deal with that and play them if you like. you want to change it now to make them even or better than trans jobs? and what will you say when 3rd class will be implemeneted? you will want another change to make them even with those? its a fail idea from the start.
(I realize this is probably in response to the merged thread, but still applies.)

Yeah, it sure is a fail idea for them to be even with the main crop of classes available based solely on proposed HP/SP changes and job level bonus balancing.

Making them even is also apparently in the same grouping as making them better than transcendent jobs too, that's.. impeccable logic.

Like if there's two arena gladiators, and one has a copper sword while the other has an iron sword. The crowd yells for them to both be given the better crafted blade so the fight is more eventful. The response to this is "what, you want us to give them both iron swords or give that guy a shotgun?"

Aside from the logical fallacy, would you have any specifics on why the more recently proposed changes in the thread make the classes in question overpowered in any way, shape, or form? Any specifics? Any reason why an extended class being on par with a transcendent is bad other than "it's fail?" Might be more interesting a discussion.
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Really? What an intriguing argument you make, I'm going to have to re-read that several times before I get the overall gist of your stance but, I must say you've changed my mind.

Look forward to your post, Koma. It's seeming to me like several people are either:

A. Not reading even 1/10th of what's written.
B. Not realizing there's more than one proposed idea in this thread. I've seen four different takes on how to handle this within the thread, and most dissenters are responding like it's some general "Gunslingers get +20 to all stats" solution that's non-existent.
C. People not interested in the topic itself but being asked to jump by on behalf of others who won't defend their point. I had someone in main chat the other day point out randomly my "funny topic" (even though I didn't make this thread, lolololol) - and how my ideas are all "stupid" regarding this thread, which .. heavily supports point B even if we took my stance aside entirely.
D. That awesome debate me and that one guy had earlier. We were all "objection" but with posts.

Which is sad, a little. But there's been a variety of interesting ideas proposed here, even if not everyone sees eye to eye in what needs touched. I for example don't agree with the ideas proposed in page 8 via the merged thread, because I feel in terms of raw output, the extended are fine.
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Re: Extended classes, now with half the flame.

Post by Haelstrom »

DiscOH wrote:I've been playing RO for about 4 Years on various private servers. I've always thought it interesting that, without fail, some one will request a buff to extended classes. The buffs range from the extravagant: "Create an entirely new set of trance extended classes with new skills" to the more mundane "Give them access to trance gear". About 20% of the time the suggestion passes. About half of those changes affect server balance.
I find it interesting too, but where one might see this as an indicator of the need for such a general suggestion pool, others will see it as a L2P moment as this thread as readily demonstrated..
Now, from what I've seen this server is not too keen on flamboyant mods to game play. The biggest custom you might see here is a +3 stat pumpkin hat (which honestly is still overshadowed by a +7 feather beret). This being the case, a modification to something as large as class functions may leave a bad taste in peoples mouths. However, I believe just as it is with the few custom stated hats that the server has accepted, there are a few buffs extended classes could receive that would not obsolete any of the current classes or their roles.
Actually, if you check the Halloween Events from iRO.. (You likely mean more towards the method of gaining it than the hat itself.) As for a +7 FB versus a the Festival Pumpkin Hat, depends on the class. "Neither" is still viable in quite a few areas.

However, while I respect a server's wishes to be as close to original as possible, we've already many deviations from the source content. I believe that should never constitute as an excuse for a potentially useful ~ vital change to be turned away.

Regardless, I'll address your first suggestion.
First off, gunslingers have abysmal SP levels and very high SP costs per second. Even if we were to invest all 350 available points (after the DEX and AGI, this is what you have left) into int we would end up with a paltry 830 SP. A gunslinger will eat through a little over 100 SP every second they are attacking which means you need a very high amount of SP items, much as a Champion Might.
Actually.. you'd be surprised on AGI's role, depending on spec. I wouldn't say the SP is a Gunslinger's crippling weakness, but rather a limitation depending on circumstances. That's part of the three proposals in place, in regards to their very low HP/SP even in end game.
The next problem is the necessity for madness canceler.
Again.. this really depends heavily on what spec you're oriented around, it's only a "necessity" with this in mind.
Out of madness canceler your DPS drops to about 20k per second (not so good). Inside of madness cancler you can't walk. As its not something you can turn on and off easily (because of coins, more on that latter) you can't really "set up shop" except inside a precast or during a SE stand off.
Certainly true enough, but again, that's not how two other takes on Gunslinger mid-WoE are even played. It's a weakness, but it nearly as vital as what's already been discussed regarding said class.
The main reason people don't play gunslingers though is the tedious task of tossing tokens.
..Now, that's a new one to me. I've never once had a problem with token tossing.
To be honest, I don't know what the success rate on flip coins is currently, but its low enough to be aggravating when you count that a failure removes a coin. The time investment on this even with 190 ASPD is several seconds every time you want to use a buff. The amount of frustration this skill creates is on par with farming AD mats. Only you don't get the satisfaction of auto winning every time you do.

What do I suggest? Raise the success rate for flip coin to (Skill level)18%. This doesn't affect the number of pots they can carry, still making their exploits explosive and short lived. It doesnt affect their SP or HP pools keeping them squishy. This doesn't change their damage values preventing them from rolling people. It just makes the class a little less annoying to play for some one who has learned to deal with the rest of their drawbacks.
It's.. not at all comparable (Flip Coin to AD mats), you just have to ration your coin usage appropriately. Yes, it's frustrating, but it isn't nearly as time consuming as AD farming in the very slightest. Honestly, I've never heard someone complain about Flip Coin in my life, that's the least of the class's overall concerns. I'd be far more concerned with the fact they're extremely squishy even when compared to their already stated, closest main-class equivalent (Sniper) and have the SP of a fish if fish in fact had low SP.

Most of the coin buffs require sub-10 coins, and sub-10 can easily be obtained in mere seconds with de-equipping your gun, Flip Coin repeatedly, and hitting whichever key you have your weapon bound to. I apologize, it's just really hard to see how someone could compare that to the more inhibiting aspects of the class.
Ninja: Are a very strange class to play. In PvE these things are untouchable. Cicada Skin shedding keeps you safe and out of trouble against pretty much everything. Their magical repertoire gives them a lot of options for farming and all of their skills have a very fun and interesting "feel" to them. In PvP they retain a lot of their potential being as hard to pin down as Champions but with the added bonus of Cicada preventing melee attempts. Killing stroke hits just hard enough to drop most targets, and the knock back on Cicada will usually keep you alive during its cool down.
About right. It's almost ironic, their biggest drawback in PVP is that most people think caster is the end-all to Ninja in every situation ever.
In WoE though... Well. Ninjas blow. Seriously.
For the most part. Again, melee can in the right circumstances do well, but as you explain..
Their damage has always been low to compensate for their higher mobility and durability and the added reductions do nothing but aggravate this shortcoming. But in WoE they lose the advantage of Cicada's knock back and Shadow Jump's maneuverability.

What do I suggest? Two things both playing off of the same theme. Enable shadow jump in every map where Jump is available (I believe this is every important map with the exception of WoE SE) and apply the same Emergency Recall cast time nerf to those who have it learned that applies to those who have learned high jump (double cast time).
Now, that would be interesting and seem perfectly plausible, provided it was only in maps Jump was enabled indeed.
Secondly, allow the forced movement on shadow slash during both WoEs.
Not going to happen. Snap-to-attack skills are just too problematic in a WoE setting, even with the best of intentions in mind.
What does this do? It lets ninjas move again while keeping them from encroaching on Stalker last real niche of Guild Leader.
Stalkers are far from useless besides just being recallers.
Soul Linker: Is a bit of a joke class to main as anybody who have ever tried it can contest. You get to participate about once every ten minutes and then you run around trying not to die for the rest of it. Occasionally you will run into another soul linker, or if you are smart you can dual client one to buff yourself. If that happens the class suddenly has a function aside from farming (which it does fairly well).
They do farm well indeed. People over-rate Esma really, their big draw is Eswoo. Using that on Manuk is a god-send, makes party-leveling there easier than I can describe.
If for some reason you have two soul linker mains that link each other, the second one is twice as useless at that point as none of the Soul Link's buffs can stack. Aside from spamming Kaupe and Kaite twice as fast on people under fire, which I will admit has times when it helps, they generally are punished too hard by the diminishing returns of exclusive buffs to be of much use.

What do I suggest? Allow soul linkers to target themselves with the Soul Linker buff, OR, remove the requirement for a link to use ka buffs on other players. "Give them a permanent Soul link, are you crazy?!" Every player who mains a soul linker is going to make a soul linker alt to keep themselves buffed. Its just tedious work. They already have immunity to dispell, so it isn't that they need to keep another linker around in case of emergency. This buff by itself would go a long way towards making the class something more than an alt to give links every ten minutes.
I have to disagree. That's really not why they're alts. It's simply that currently, outside of Linking and minimal buffing (making a second SL alt takes all of 15 minutes), they really don't bring much to WoE. They have no plausible offensive capabilities aside from Critical Dagger WEEEE mode which isn't really "viable," just plausible. A majority of their support role can be done right from town or outside the castle entrance.

It's less the (in)convenience of self/co-buffing and more the fact they lack function in the action that makes them alts, and to fix that requires more than what the scope of this thread offers. My stat suggestion on them merely makes their one possible offensive niche to keep them alive slightly longer (maybe) in the fray a little more possible rather than a funny pipe-dream.
Taekwon Ranker: They aren't top tier, but I don't feel they need anything to play their niche. Its a fun class to play and it does its role well.

What do I suggest? For the moment, nothing, you might want to open up the class a bit, maybe enable ranker status for anybody with 50 or more points, but nothing needs to be changed.
Really the one class I'm not majorly pumping changes for, other than perhaps minor job bonus tweaks upon Ranker status.

As for the 50 points, no way. 3 of the rankers here, last I checked, are rankers with just 10 points. We shouldn't even consider that option unless there were 10 rankers with absolutely absurd amounts of points (we're talking the thousands) to the point where no new player to the server could feasibly become Ranker. Then more slots would be plausible.

We're nowhere near that right now.

I already covered my take on SG overall earlier in the thread. They have MVP viability here simply due to access, but it's not as some people make it out to be even with Heat's justice.

Overall, I'm really mixed on your (originally) thread. Don't take that as me being utterly dismissive, I see good points and you did give your argument substance - it's just, a lot of it simply isn't plausible and/or to the heart of the problem with the suggestion's respective class.
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Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Koma »

Denied (but re-iterating some points). Chances are very slim of this getting approved in the future, but there is some flexibility with the proper request.

Changes to class structure are okay in moderation, but this is out-of-bounds generally since it completely re-balances the game. The chances of another topic being raised (if this was approved) regarding buffing the trans classes further -- or even regarding making priests a more offensive class (then what becomes the point of even having classes?) -- would force this into an endless and unnecessary loop. If an official Gravity change is done to re-balance the classes, yes, but this is a far more reaching issue should Amistr decide to make this form of modification. At that point, Amistr could no longer go on as an "RO" server in some aspects and concern players expecting a fairly true-to-RO experience (whereas our rates and configurations are more for acceleration or entertainment purposes not to be derailed from the original core game itself).

Discussion itself has existed in many forms over the years. On RMS, GaiaOnline, RO-Empire, and further regarding this and it was always an understood and explained by Gravity that they were never to be on-par with trans classes. There are still rumors of course about Jiangshi, Dark Collector, and Death Knight, but its been about 2-3 years now since those have been confirmed. At one point in time, the extended classes were more powerful than the base classes, but this has flipped. More than likely, it will flip again or other classes will be available.

Surprisingly, there were no requests to expand upon the Super Novices in the same respect for the extended classes either as Salad had pointed out. Also, there are still plenty of advantages and positive experiences related to these classes in their current state that this can be viewed as unnecessary.
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