BUff for extended classes

Nullified suggestions are shown here. These are the denied changes.
Locked
User avatar
Novalmauge
Santa Poring
Santa Poring
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 am

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Novalmauge »

Impulsive wrote:You don't understand...What is the difference between Thief and Ninja? Cause the difference in skills is what I'm asking for all the 1st classes. Extended classes have way better skills than 1st classes. It's not fair to my thief if you guys buff a taekwon but not 1st classes.
Answer my question what is the difference between high thief and thief. What is it that High 1st classes have that extended do not.

By the way... extended aren't first classes, they have a tier of their own. http://iro.ragnarokonline.com/game/jobintro.asp but thats besides the point.
Impulsive
Santa Poring
Santa Poring
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Impulsive »

Novalmauge wrote:
Impulsive wrote:You don't understand...What is the difference between Thief and Ninja? Cause the difference in skills is what I'm asking for all the 1st classes. Extended classes have way better skills than 1st classes. It's not fair to my thief if you guys buff a taekwon but not 1st classes.
Answer my question what is the difference between high thief and thief. What is it that High 1st classes have that extended do not.

By the way... extended aren't first classes, they have a tier of their own. http://iro.ragnarokonline.com/game/jobintro.asp but thats besides the point.
Answer my question. What is the difference between thief and ninja? What is it that Ninjas have that thieves do not?

This arguement can go in circles all day. I can see your point, I'm just choosing not to acknowledge it since you won't do that with mine
User avatar
Haelstrom
Bomb Poring
Bomb Poring
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:49 pm
Location: Indiana.
Contact:

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Haelstrom »

Impulsive wrote:This arguement can go in circles all day. I can see your point, I'm just choosing not to acknowledge it since you won't do that with mine-
I have. For serious. Several times in fact, I'm failing to see how you're missing this.

Thief: I can become a more powerful form of myself who can become a more powerful form of themselves who soon can become an even stronger form of themselves. :D

Gunslinger: [Done.] .. crap.

If I have to make a Pokemon metaphor, lord help us all because it'll be terrible.
Last edited by Kiana on Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Language
Image
Impulsive
Santa Poring
Santa Poring
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Impulsive »

Haelstrom wrote:
Impulsive wrote:This arguement can go in circles all day. I can see your point, I'm just choosing not to acknowledge it since you won't do that with mine-
I have. For serious. Several times in fact, I'm failing to see how you're missing this.

Thief: I can become a more powerful form of myself who can become a more powerful form of themselves who soon can become an even stronger form of themselves. :D

Gunslinger: [Done.] .. crap.

If I have to make a Pokemon metaphor, lord help us all because it'll be terrible.
wasn't directed at you.
User avatar
Novalmauge
Santa Poring
Santa Poring
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 am

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Novalmauge »

Impulsive wrote:
Novalmauge wrote:
Impulsive wrote:You don't understand...What is the difference between Thief and Ninja? Cause the difference in skills is what I'm asking for all the 1st classes. Extended classes have way better skills than 1st classes. It's not fair to my thief if you guys buff a taekwon but not 1st classes.
Answer my question what is the difference between high thief and thief. What is it that High 1st classes have that extended do not.

By the way... extended aren't first classes, they have a tier of their own. http://iro.ragnarokonline.com/game/jobintro.asp but thats besides the point.
Answer my question. What is the difference between thief and ninja? What is it that Ninjas have that thieves do not?

This arguement can go in circles all day. I can see your point, I'm just choosing not to acknowledge it since you won't do that with mine
Ninjas have an assload of skills compared to a thief... but thief have access to a higher state of being IE 2nd class or even trans'ing into high novice/high thief. You can wrap your little arguement about these 16/1 1st class/extended 1st class all day.

I'm asking for extended classes to have the potential to come closer to trans class... not surpass them by anymeans, yet you believe that this would be unfair to 1st classes. Who have the potential to become more than they already are. IE 2nd class jobs/rebirth.

If you still wish to deny my reasoning then my words are wasted on you, and probably have been since the beginning. I understand your point but see it overshadowed by mine. I won't argue with you any further.
DiscOH
Poring
Poring
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:22 am

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by DiscOH »

As the customs on this server are built for ease of play (exp gain, dungeon warps) and are designed to avoid any alterations to competitive systems (MVP, PvP, WoE), a leap like this can be a little hard for many to swallow. If the primary user group for Amistr RO expects a standard, albeit less time consuming server (which, looking through the suggestion forum seems to be the case), why should this mod to competitive play be implemented?
User avatar
Haelstrom
Bomb Poring
Bomb Poring
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:49 pm
Location: Indiana.
Contact:

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Haelstrom »

DiscOH wrote:As the customs on this server are built for ease of play (exp gain, dungeon warps) and are designed to avoid any alterations to competitive systems (MVP, PvP, WoE), a leap like this can be a little hard for many to swallow. If the primary user group for Amistr RO expects a standard, albeit less time consuming server (which, looking through the suggestion forum seems to be the case), why should this mod to competitive play be implemented?
While fair enough in terms of scope, that kind of logic ultimately boils down to stagnancy in any server when they reason away changes they don't care to pursue as "keeping to official" and then ignoring such views when it's an idea of convenience. I can't speak for the server nor even a chunk of it, but I never walked into Amistr thinking "it's RO - easier! :D" let alone, that excusing completely dismissing this premise.
Image
pasthesaltplese
Poring
Poring
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:01 am

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by pasthesaltplese »

john john john shut the fluff up a minute


and take a hit of this "california gentlemen"
Last edited by Kiana on Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Language
DiscOH
Poring
Poring
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:22 am

Extended classes, now with half the flame.

Post by DiscOH »

I've been playing RO for about 4 Years on various private servers. I've always thought it interesting that, without fail, some one will request a buff to extended classes. The buffs range from the extravagant: "Create an entirely new set of trance extended classes with new skills" to the more mundane "Give them access to trance gear". About 20% of the time the suggestion passes. About half of those changes affect server balance.

Now, from what I've seen this server is not too keen on flamboyant mods to game play. The biggest custom you might see here is a +3 stat pumpkin hat (which honestly is still overshadowed by a +7 feather beret). This being the case, a modification to something as large as class functions may leave a bad taste in peoples mouths. However, I believe just as it is with the few custom stated hats that the server has accepted, there are a few buffs extended classes could receive that would not obsolete any of the current classes or their roles.

Gunslinger: Are closely related to the other ranged class, Sniper. They build similarly and play similarly. On servers with Gunslinger buffs many who normally will main a Sniper will at least try this class out. However, the classes when optimized, have very different roles.

A gunslinger first off needs either bragi, or full battle grounds gear to be competitive (as in Sheriff suit set and a +9/10 Glorious revolver). The Gunslinger then builds DEX>AGI>VIT~INT (Close to max dex, enough agi for 181-2 ASPD, and the rest into either int or vit depending on the metagame). This allows the slinger to use Bullet Shower ~2.6 times per second to the result of ~30k base damage per second (reduced by WoE and DEF, but still pretty good).

A Sniper is usually commisioned for their traps, or in high population SE WoE, sharp shooting. I wont get into their build, Its a popular enough class that you probably know already.

Of course, if this was the whole story we would see a lot more gunslingers. There are a couple problems which make the class rather frustrating to play:

First off, gunslingers have abysmal SP levels and very high SP costs per second. Even if we were to invest all 350 available points (after the DEX and AGI, this is what you have left) into int we would end up with a paltry 830 SP. A gunslinger will eat through a little over 100 SP every second they are attacking which means you need a very high amount of SP items, much as a Champion Might.

The next problem is the necessity for madness canceler. Out of madness canceler your DPS drops to about 20k per second (not so good). Inside of madness cancler you can't walk. As its not something you can turn on and off easily (because of coins, more on that latter) you can't really "set up shop" except inside a precast or during a SE stand off.

The main reason people don't play gunslingers though is the tedious task of tossing tokens. To be honest, I don't know what the success rate on flip coins is currently, but its low enough to be aggravating when you count that a failure removes a coin. The time investment on this even with 190 ASPD is several seconds every time you want to use a buff. The amount of frustration this skill creates is on par with farming AD mats. Only you don't get the satisfaction of auto winning every time you do.

What do I suggest? Raise the success rate for flip coin to (Skill level)18%. This doesn't affect the number of pots they can carry, still making their exploits explosive and short lived. It doesnt affect their SP or HP pools keeping them squishy. This doesn't change their damage values preventing them from rolling people. It just makes the class a little less annoying to play for some one who has learned to deal with the rest of their drawbacks.


Ninja: Are a very strange class to play. In PvE these things are untouchable. Cicada Skin shedding keeps you safe and out of trouble against pretty much everything. Their magical repertoire gives them a lot of options for farming and all of their skills have a very fun and interesting "feel" to them. In PvP they retain a lot of their potential being as hard to pin down as Champions but with the added bonus of Cicada preventing melee attempts. Killing stroke hits just hard enough to drop most targets, and the knock back on Cicada will usually keep you alive during its cool down.

In WoE though... Well. Ninjas blow. Seriously. Their damage has always been low to compensate for their higher mobility and durability and the added reductions do nothing but aggravate this shortcoming. But in WoE they lose the advantage of Cicada's knock back and Shadow Jump's maneuverability.

What do I suggest? Two things both playing off of the same theme. Enable shadow jump in every map where Jump is available (I believe this is every important map with the exception of WoE SE) and apply the same Emergency Recall cast time nerf to those who have it learned that applies to those who have learned high jump (double cast time). Secondly, allow the forced movement on shadow slash during both WoEs. What does this do? It lets ninjas move again while keeping them from encroaching on Stalker last real niche of Guild Leader. Mobility and Cicada are essentially the only things that make this class stand out, to remove the former from them in the area of highest competition seems like a pointless nerf.

Soul Linker: Is a bit of a joke class to main as anybody who have ever tried it can contest. You get to participate about once every ten minutes and then you run around trying not to die for the rest of it. Occasionally you will run into another soul linker, or if you are smart you can dual client one to buff yourself. If that happens the class suddenly has a function aside from farming (which it does fairly well).

If for some reason you have two soul linker mains that link each other, the second one is twice as useless at that point as none of the Soul Link's buffs can stack. Aside from spamming Kaupe and Kaite twice as fast on people under fire, which I will admit has times when it helps, they generally are punished too hard by the diminishing returns of exclusive buffs to be of much use.

What do I suggest? Allow soul linkers to target themselves with the Soul Linker buff, OR, remove the requirement for a link to use ka buffs on other players. "Give them a permanent Soul link, are you crazy?!" Every player who mains a soul linker is going to make a soul linker alt to keep themselves buffed. Its just tedious work. They already have immunity to dispell, so it isn't that they need to keep another linker around in case of emergency. This buff by itself would go a long way towards making the class something more than an alt to give links every ten minutes.

Taekwon Ranker: They aren't top tier, but I don't feel they need anything to play their niche. Its a fun class to play and it does its role well.

What do I suggest? For the moment, nothing, you might want to open up the class a bit, maybe enable ranker status for anybody with 50 or more points, but nothing needs to be changed.

Star Gladiator: I have mixed feelings about this class. In WoE its a top tier class if it has miracle. In Thors you can grind for exp very effectively. Against a couple of MVPs the class is indispensable. The problem is Dispel eats up Miracle, leveling is already fairly easy and honestly who doesn't just Asura MVPs. What is left then is a class isolated to three maps of marginal use and occasionally a decent breaker (less useful and used than either Lord Knight or SinX, but thats not really an issue). Smart Star Gladiators will notice that grinding multiple SGs circumvents the issue of map isolation. Yet, most will agree that grinding the same character multiple times is a bit tedious.

What do I suggest? A Map reset NPC that works once a day. This keeps you from functionally having every map as your place of the Sun/Moon/Stars while keeping you from being confined to only three maps. You can attach a cost to it if you want, but I personally don't see the necessity as the class is already very underplayed in everything but a few MVPs and Thors leeching.

Input would be nice, please try to keep all comments on topic.

Disclaimer: This was posted at 3 AM, I may edit it for clarity later on.
User avatar
Koma
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 708
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:05 pm

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Koma »

Merged the two threads for now.. will deal with the flaming as well if necessary.

I'll reply within the next (yes, I just edited this in. I became too busy with this week's updates) day with a detailed response, but Kiana has already said what was needed on my behalf in most points. I'm currently in a rush as far as time goes at the moment and this one will take a much larger response. /no1
Locked