BUff for extended classes

Nullified suggestions are shown here. These are the denied changes.
Locked
User avatar
Novalmauge
Santa Poring
Santa Poring
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 am

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Novalmauge »

There are a few things I'm concerned about with your post, as I've stated in my first post, I have no concern on the taekwon tree, my attention lies with Gunslinger and Ninja.
Salad wrote:As confirmed by a Gamemaster, extended classes are meant to be a novelty class, much like Super Novice. Why is it that people accept that Super Novices are to be a novelty and strictly that, but argue for Extended then if they're also categorized this way? I don't understand the situations you provided, which are all strictly one Extended class character against an entire guild. Are you implying that you want a single character to be able to fend off and maybe kill off an entire guild?
Does it really bother you that some people want a class they enjoy to be a viable PvP/WoE class? I personally enjoy gunslinger and WoE alike, but can't enjoy both worlds. For when I go into a castle I get laughed at and OHKO'd by say, idk something mediocre like arrow vulcan.

You also are simple overestimating the extended classes I have in question, and you yourself are implying that a increase in survivablity would make them an unbalanced class. We simply want their concept to come to fruition and emerge from the "novelty" class to a worthy advisory.
Salad wrote: Another class I particularly enjoy is Sniper, and I again feel a little offended that being lacking in offensive capabilities when it comes to WoE is something that should be fixed when Sniper has a very nice support role to play. I don't understand your comparison of Gunslinger to Sniper, and pointing out that you cannot use a shield on a Gunslinger while attacking simultaneously and then proceeding to mention Double Strafe, which suffers from the same problem, and although does damage over time, is worthless in WoE aside from a possible stunlock and status (in which arrow shower, sharpshooting and even ctrl clicking is far superior in) as the lack of burst damage makes it so you can outpot three double strafes in one or two mastelas etc.
This is also considering that for Double Strafe to be decent, you'd need a considerable amount of Agility and Dexterity, which most WoE snipers do not have the luxury of getting (AGI) because VIT is such a prominent and important stat alongside STR for the many traps and pots they'll need.
I'm a little confused by your first sentence, I believe your saying Snipers lack offensive capabilities when it comes to WoE, but is counterbalanced by their supportive attributes i.e. Traps and Wind Walking. (correct me if I'm wrong ^^;) Yet, beyond that you don't understand the comparison between Gunslinger and Sniper. Let me clarify, both are ranged assailants who pick there opponents off from a distance. Both have a agi/dex offensive dependency. There are differences between the two hence they are separate classes, and you already mentioned the biggest one, Snipers supportive capabilities i.e. traps and wind walking. another is gunslingers dmg modifiers are higher, making them much more of a 'damage dealer'. (once again correct me if I'm wrong)
Salad wrote:If you want to play a different role, then a good tip is to ... play another class.
Hmm this is a little contradictory of you... because I want to play the roll of a ranged melee DD my ideal choices are sniper, gunslinger, and clown/gypsy. Clown/Gypsy ruled out; need I explain? Now I'm left with Sniper and gunslinger. Wait we covered, this Sniper is DD/Support and Gunslinger is full DD. Gunslinger it is! Too bad they lack one of the key factors to PvP/WoE... survivability.

You mentioned something about Wizards and their low HP mods? This is true, they have the lowest at .55 (but don't forget the trans mod .25) yet this is well warranted considering their AoE damage capabilites, they have one of the Highest Damage Per Seconds amongst the classes, with the ability to immobilize unprepared enemies. As well as the inane 6-30% physical dmg reduction provided through Energy Coat. (what about magical def!?!... they have enough int to shrug off most magical barrages ^.~)

I do feel bad for posting this, because of its argumentive nature, but I feel strongly about this subject and don't feel it should die so easily, without every source exhausted, ever avenue explored, and Pros and Cons dissected.
Even one of the leading antagonists said:
Neryth wrote:It's true that their stats could do with some improvement, but attaining balance between classes is a tricky thing, which is why most servers don't tamper with it in the first place.
Which is a sign of hope.

It will be tricky, but we aren't most servers ^.~ we are of Amistr RO.
Impulsive
Santa Poring
Santa Poring
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Impulsive »

buff 1-1 classes too. i want to use them in woe but their hp and damage are so low =((((((((((((((((((((((((((

super buff pls
User avatar
Aredhel
Poring
Poring
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:00 pm

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Aredhel »

Impulsive wrote:buff 1-1 classes too. i want to use them in woe but their hp and damage are so low =((((((((((((((((((((((((((

super buff pls
Really, can nothing you say actually contribute to this?
Image
When life gives you lemons, drop them and bail.
User avatar
Novalmauge
Santa Poring
Santa Poring
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 am

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Novalmauge »

Impulsive wrote:buff 1-1 classes too. i want to use them in woe but their hp and damage are so low =((((((((((((((((((((((((((

super buff pls

Let my reiterate my suggestion for people who don't read everything.

I originally suggested to add a rebirth to gunslinger and ninja, making them possibly "High Gunslinger" and "High Ninja", doing this would give them the 25% hp bonus of transing and the possibly adjusting the job bonus tables... (just like high archer, aco, merchant, swordsman, and mage). Adjusting the exp tables as well, would counterbalancing the whole "omg they 1st classes". Essentially they would take longer to lvl than trans class just to catch up in viability.
Impulsive
Santa Poring
Santa Poring
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Impulsive »

Aredhel wrote:
Impulsive wrote:buff 1-1 classes too. i want to use them in woe but their hp and damage are so low =((((((((((((((((((((((((((

super buff pls
Really, can nothing you say actually contribute to this?
i was being serious. if you buff extended class why not buff all the other ones?
User avatar
Haelstrom
Bomb Poring
Bomb Poring
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:49 pm
Location: Indiana.
Contact:

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Haelstrom »

Impulsive wrote:i was being serious. if you buff extended class why not buff all the other ones?
Then you get a serious reply:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=783&start=10#p3949" TARGET="_blank

Your question's already been asked and answered.
Image
Impulsive
Santa Poring
Santa Poring
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Impulsive »

you dismissed the question by stating a fact, it was never answered. if you want to argue that a sinx=a thief then here's basic logic

thief=1st class
assassin=2nd class
assassin cross=2nd class
assassin cross=buffed version of an assassin
1st class=/=2nd class
thief=/=assassin
assassin cross=/=buffed version of a theif

buff everything or buff nothing.
User avatar
Haelstrom
Bomb Poring
Bomb Poring
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:49 pm
Location: Indiana.
Contact:

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Haelstrom »

Impulsive wrote:you dismissed the question by stating a fact, it was never answered. if you want to argue that a sinx=a thief..
SinX = Thief tree, as does Stalker. Stalker and Assassin Cross are the final evolutions of the Thief class. A Thief can literally in minutes' time, promote to a Rogue or Assassin and in relatively little time, transcend, become a High Thief with substantially more HP/SP available, and become a Stalker / Assassin Cross.

A Novice who becomes a Gunslinger is at base level 99, a Gunslinger.

At 20, they're a Gunslinger.

At 70, they're a Gunslinger.

They lack the ability to "upgrade;" they are in the form they are, in its finality, for good.

Recap:

A. (Main Class Example) Thief has the option to promote to vastly more powerful specializations of a Thief, including Rogue/Assassin, Stalker/Assassin Cross, and soon Shadow Chaser / Guillotine Cross which can be done after they become Stalker/Assassin Cross for an even larger stat gap between they and the average extended.
B. (Extended Class Example) Gunslinger has the option to choose either nothing or nothing for a "promotion." When they promote to nothing, they can then transcend into High Nothing, and then become Nothing Cross. Soon, they get even more class specialization available in the form of the 3rd class Nothing, which gives them even more capabilities to further bridge the gap between themselves and the main classes.

Yes, they are more powerful than other first classes, but solely because they never receive higher forms.

They're meant to be more powerful than initial 1st main classes, but there is a distinct gap between they and these main class finalized forms (that will be assuredly widened with the advent of the 3rd classes). They're capable, and they can be effective; no one's disputed those things, merely that there are lacking in stat growth and in some cases gear composition, which has been covered. If it's a matter of time invested, I and I'm sure the other supporters of this topic would gladly level into a "High" version of these classes.

The worst arguments I've seen against the whole premise thus far, tie between:

-"L2P it's about skill not gear," because that is a hypocritical extreme, given if that were the case, regardless of the outcome of this decision - you should have no problems. Obviously, gear and stats matter significantly to you as long as they're to classes you don't actively play.

-"THEY'RE BOTH FIRST CLASSES!!! BUFF THEM BOTH" They're not at all the same, however. There's clearly a large dynamic shift between main classes and extended. Not to mention again, the promotions argument; main simply end up on average with more capabilities than extended do in whole. I'm not at all stating an extended can't be effective in WoE, PVP, PVM, the nine yards; not even a little. Just that they're lacking in varying fields per extended to a significant degree that makes them lag behind the most played classes: namely, the Transcendent core classes.

-"THEY'RE MEANT TO BE NOVELTY" No, baby classes are meant to be novelty. Entirely new class trees are meant to be viable; if that was not Gravity's original intention, then it's high time a mistake of that caliber is differed from, sooner rather than later. It isn't going to be an easy process, I realize this - finding the sweet spot of accomplishing what this thread desires without over-buffing the extended will take time and extensive testing. But that will be time not just I find well worthwhile.
--------------------------
I feel this almost a waste because I know you already understand this and you're just ragetrolling Impulsive, but for the sake of explaining it to those few who sadly might actually not understand the premise.. there you go. Enjoy.
buff everything or buff nothing.
GIVE ME LIBERTY OR talk to Fighter.
Image
User avatar
Novalmauge
Santa Poring
Santa Poring
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 am

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Novalmauge »

Impulsive wrote:you dismissed the question by stating a fact, it was never answered. if you want to argue that a sinx=a thief then here's basic logic

thief=1st class
assassin=2nd class
assassin cross=2nd class
assassin cross=buffed version of an assassin
1st class=/=2nd class
thief=/=assassin
assassin cross=/=buffed version of a theif

buff everything or buff nothing.
You don't understand... What is the difference between a High Thief and a Thief? Cause this difference is what we are asking for for gunslinger and ninja.
Impulsive
Santa Poring
Santa Poring
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: BUff for extended classes

Post by Impulsive »

Haelstrom wrote: Recap:

A. (Main Class Example) Thief has the option to promote to vastly more powerful specializations of a Thief, including Rogue/Assassin, Stalker/Assassin Cross, and soon Shadow Chaser / Guillotine Cross which can be done after they become Stalker/Assassin Cross for an even larger stat gap between they and the average extended.
B. (Extended Class Example) Gunslinger has the option to choose either nothing or nothing for a "promotion." When they promote to nothing, they can then transcend into High Nothing, and then become Nothing Cross. Soon, they get even more class specialization available in the form of the 3rd class Nothing, which gives them even more capabilities to further bridge the gap between themselves and the main classes.

Yes, they are more powerful than other first classes, but solely because they never receive higher forms.

They're meant to be more powerful than initial 1st main classes, but there is a distinct gap between they and these main class finalized forms (that will be assuredly widened with the advent of the 3rd classes). They're capable, and they can be effective; no one's disputed those things, merely that there are lacking in stat growth and in some cases gear composition, which has been covered. If it's a matter of time invested, I and I'm sure the other supporters of this topic would gladly level into a "High" version of these classes.

The worst arguments I've seen against the whole premise thus far

-"THEY'RE BOTH FIRST CLASSES!!! BUFF THEM BOTH" They're not at all the same, however. There's clearly a large dynamic shift between main classes and extended. Not to mention again, the promotions argument; main simply end up on average with more capabilities than extended do in whole. I'm not at all stating an extended can't be effective in WoE, PVP, PVM, the nine yards; not even a little. Just that they're lacking in varying fields per extended to a significant degree that makes them lag behind the most played classes: namely, the Transcendent core classes.


--------------------------
I feel this almost a waste because I know you already understand this and you're just ragetrolling Impulsive
You now you never disproved my arguement right?
Thief still=/=Assassin cross. If you want to tie things together with the "they're in the same family" logic then everything's related because every class goes back to novice. HI NOVICE TREE.

You keep saying I'm a troll so I'll flame instead. Youre a fcking idiot if you think im a troll who
A)stays in one topic
B)makes arguements against a suggestion
C)gives another suggestion that's almost exactly like the first

Now go away you hypocrite. I'm tired of seeing your selfproclaimed smartness all over this topic. You're so narcissistic you take your own ideals as fact then change the "facts" when your ideas change.
Haelstrom wrote:They're meant to be more powerful than initial 1st main classes
Since I know you're too arrogant to understand why you're a hypocrite I thought I'd point it out. Replace "they're" with "trans are" and "1st main classes" with "extended classes." Wow guess it's logical to buff a class you want buffed but when someone asks for another class buffed it's illogical. Good job fag, you're probably the only idiot smart enough to lose an arguement with himself; guess you really are as great as you think you are.
Novalmauge wrote: You don't understand... What is the difference between a High Thief and a Thief? Cause this difference is what we are asking for for gunslinger and ninja.
You don't understand...What is the difference between Thief and Ninja? Cause the difference in skills is what I'm asking for all the 1st classes. Extended classes have way better skills than 1st classes. It's not fair to my thief if you guys buff a taekwon but not 1st classes.
Locked