Cosmetic Editing: Limitations.

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Haelstrom
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Cosmetic Editing: Limitations.

Post by Haelstrom »

Clarification I'd like to have - from what I understand, cosmetic editing is allowed so long as it doesn't give an advantage to the user.

I.E. if I made Kefka, my Clown's Frost Jokes say "RUN RUN, OR YOU'LL BE WELL DONE!" instead of insane Korean Engrish, that's just character flavor and shouldn't be a problem.

But if I edited Chase Walk steps so they're fluorescent pink, that's clearly a problem.

However, I feel some things blur the line, so I'll ask rather than just pester the first GM/admin I can, via here and see what the input is.

First example:

http://www.ratemyserver.net/forum/guide ... ze-card/0/

The "use" of this is obvious. It'd make card sprites bigger, thus easier to pick up for someone wanting to pick them out. However, I wanna pull a Tactics Ogre with a Tarot, 'cos that's awesome.

Now, one could say "this edit affects gameplay" by making cards easier to pick up.. but in a day and age where @autoloot is so commonly used and can even be enabled at sign-in, that seems a moot "advantage" if one at all. Would this be permitted then, or is it still frowned upon?

Similarly,

http://www.ratemyserver.net/forum/guide ... effects/0/

This has the benefit of said AoE's being visible but not "my god, my eyes are on fire" - yet this is more so achievable via noeffect.

http://www.ratemyserver.net/forum/guide ... ni-maps/0/

Here, mini-maps that give a more definitive path through dungeons first-timers may have trouble navigating. Just as doable via alt+tab'ing to RMS, this just saves time.

http://www.ratemyserver.net/forum/guide ... rmation/0/

This (besides the fact those pillars look 30x more awesome) makes it easier for that particular user to target the Guardians. However, personally, I'd find it more difficult since I already can contrast the two just fine, and such a strange foggish ground would make me not as alert.

http://www.ratemyserver.net/forum/guide ... d-items/0/

This obviously gives an advantage, but only one of convenience as you can easily do the same thing via checking the item's zeny value, going to the identify NPC, etc..etc.. again a time saver with no game breaking elements I can spot.
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Whole premise refined into a nutshell: what are the limits on cosmetic modifying? Are such simple "advantages" worth restricting when they're already doable and then some via other means, and what's the boundary on it all in general?

I hate people who edit the game to get an unfair advantage, I do. And I realize it'll be tricky to decree what's kosher and what's not on a case by case basis. I know it's touched on as is, but I can't get a clear consensus on just where the line is drawn. Thank you.
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Re: Cosmetic Editing: Limitations.

Post by cometodru »

Without knowing what each person is capable of editing-wise, you can't prove that they are or aren't doing grf edits. That is, unless they flat out say they're doing it. I'd be more worried about other things than cosmetic changes. As for changing chase walk colors, I think it'd be easier to just bug out the client to go all white. Then you can see everything easily and it's, more or less, legit. I'm not going to lie, a few guild members and I use grf edits. I'm sure you've seen a few of them, possibly, most likely not, even without realizing it. There are very few grf edits out there that would give an overwhelming advantage. All of which can be spotted a mile away. There would be no denying that something has been changed. Besides, with all the grf edits floating around out there, it's not hard to get your hands on most of them. I'd be more worried about the people who are capable of editing clients.
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Re: Cosmetic Editing: Limitations.

Post by Phaiyte »

ZOMG GRF EDITS HE'S SUCH A HACKER WE SHOULD B& HIM, PLZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rofl I like most of them.
/steal
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Re: Cosmetic Editing: Limitations.

Post by Haelstrom »

It's a matter of taste I suppose. Usually, people who edit their GRFs to give them a distinct advantage against other players get caught one idiotic way or the next, so any sort of detection isn't really necessary. It's just the sad but plain truth.

Me, I love spriting, and I love customizing any game I play. But I don't want to do so to a point I can attribute me beating another player to that edit, as that's when I feel it goes too far. Doesn't seem kosher, not at all. It's why CB kicked somebody bragging about various edits out of our guild a while back - that's just undeniably unsportsmanlike.

Client edits, I'm quite capable of changing up the client if I wished to. But the same concept applies. Whether there was a rule against it or not, I'd just .. feel lame doing it unless it was something purely for convenience sake rather than enabling an advantage that should not be there, and I'd run it by staff too.

Frankly, I could've slapped these edits and more in no problem and gone vroom vroom already, but I wanna get my ducks in a row.
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Re: Cosmetic Editing: Limitations.

Post by cometodru »

Haelstrom wrote:Doesn't seem kosher, not at all. It's why CB kicked somebody bragging about various edits out of our guild a while back - that's just undeniably unsportsmanlike.
You should kick a few others. Other things are happening which you wouldn't consider "kosher," but hey, not my guild.
Haelstrom wrote:Client edits, I'm quite capable of changing up the client if I wished to. But the same concept applies. Whether there was a rule against it or not, I'd just .. feel lame doing it unless it was something purely for convenience sake rather than enabling an advantage that should not be there, and I'd run it by staff too.
Kind of contradicted yourself there. The whole point to editing anything to your advantage is usually for your own convenience. For instance, the client which allows you to multiclient that was released by someone in your guild for the server. The GMs didn't allow their client to do it because they don't particularly agree with it. Certainly didn't stop anyone from getting it.
Haelstrom wrote:It's a matter of taste I suppose. Usually, people who edit their GRFs to give them a distinct advantage against other players get caught one idiotic way or the next, so any sort of detection isn't really necessary. It's just the sad but plain truth.
Do you really think the people who are able to make major changes of that nature would go around saying, "I DID THIS!?" For quite a few changes, unless you know the changes have been made, you can't prove it. Not to mention, most people don't even know what changes would alter game play to a high degree. You're going off the assumption that most people know how to do major grf edits of that nature when it's probably only less than 5% of players who are capable of making any kind of major edit.
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Re: Cosmetic Editing: Limitations.

Post by Phaiyte »

cometodru wrote:
Haelstrom wrote:It's why CB kicked somebody bragging about various edits out of our guild a while back
You should kick a few others.
No one that I'm aware of in CB cheats in any form.
If I were to find out, I'd expose them.
And trust me, I'm damn good at it.

Haelstrom wrote:Client edits, I'm quite capable of changing up the client if I wished to. But the same concept applies. Whether there was a rule against it or not, I'd just .. feel lame doing it unless it was something purely for convenience sake rather than enabling an advantage that should not be there, and I'd run it by staff too.
For instance, the client which allows you to multiclient that was released by someone in your guild for the server. The GMs didn't allow their client to do it because they don't particularly agree with it. Certainly didn't stop anyone from getting it.
Haelstrom wrote:I'd run it by staff
And he did.
The GMs approved it.
Why do you think THEY POSTED IT ON THEIR OWN SITE?
And you're wrong.
All of my edits are purely cosmetical.
I'm pretty sure changing how Prontera, Izlude, and Sniper/Hunter Falcons look
won't be the cause of me destroying Naght Seiger in one hit.
And I'm PRETTY positive changing BGMs doesn't do anything game-breaking.
Haelstrom wrote:It's a matter of taste I suppose. Usually, people who edit their GRFs to give them a distinct advantage against other players get caught one idiotic way or the next, so any sort of detection isn't really necessary. It's just the sad but plain truth.
Do you really think the people who are able to make major changes of that nature would go around saying, "I DID THIS!?" For quite a few changes, unless you know the changes have been made, you can't prove it. Not to mention, most people don't even know what changes would alter game play to a high degree. You're going off the assumption that most people know how to do major grf edits of that nature when it's probably only less than 5% of players who are capable of making any kind of major edit.[/quote][/quote]
I'm pretty positive that if you tell someone:
"Hey when you're blind the black circle isn't there lol"
They'll more than likely know what you're talking about,
and obviously know that that would break the game.

The man also never said anything about the %population that can edit grfs.
All this guy wants to do is show us some things he found pretty interesting.
I am all for these changes THAT CONTAIN INSTRUCTIONS SO YOU CAN DO IT YOURSELF.
If anything out of this post, the only thing I find even remotely
game breaking is the Wizard's AoE spell animations.
And not even in a serious way, either.
"ZOMG IT'S LIKE HE HAS EFFECTS TURNED OFF OR SOMETHING,
SOMEONE BAN HIM BECAUSE HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY HAVE EFFECTS TURNED OFF Q_Q
I SWEAR IF I HAVE TO SEE ANOTHER TEA POT CLOUD I'M GONNA PUNCH A BABY!!!"
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Re: Cosmetic Editing: Limitations.

Post by Koma »

Just to clarify our stance on MC'ing so there's no confusion: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=52.

And, yes, we're still monitoring this thread even though no answer has been provided yet. However, a lot of the responses are good reading and contribute to the fully-fledged response.
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Re: Cosmetic Editing: Limitations.

Post by Haelstrom »

cometodru wrote:You should kick a few others. Other things are happening which you wouldn't consider "kosher," but hey, not my guild.

Kind of contradicted yourself there. The whole point to editing anything to your advantage is usually for your own convenience. For instance, the client which allows you to multiclient that was released by someone in your guild for the server. The GMs didn't allow their client to do it because they don't particularly agree with it. Certainly didn't stop anyone from getting it.

Do you really think the people who are able to make major changes of that nature would go around saying, "I DID THIS!?" For quite a few changes, unless you know the changes have been made, you can't prove it. Not to mention, most people don't even know what changes would alter game play to a high degree. You're going off the assumption that most people know how to do major grf edits of that nature when it's probably only less than 5% of players who are capable of making any kind of major edit.
Not my guild either. Belong to it, don't own it. I merely make it clear if the guild focus shifts towards non-legit tactics, I'm out. I obviously cannot monitor the whole of the guild because besides the fact I'm literally unable to a good chunk of the time, it's not my responsibility to do so - but I've always strongly been against those we would find openly bragging about what was basically cheating.

If there are any other instances of non-legit play in CB, I'd appreciate you letting me know. However, if your idea of cheating is multi-clienting (which is perfectly fine here, just not supported by staff as posted) or camping the emp room door, I'm afraid you're mistaken. If there's evidence of something though, really would appreciate it as I want the guild like others surely do, to be clean.

As for your question: yes. You would be surprised. They usually do. They tell a friend, or they let it slip inadvertently. Said friend gets mad one day and throws a report-spree. That individual is then scrutinized, whether definitive proof is there or not; it's happened so many times on so many servers. Ultimately, people who get an unfair edge find it hard to keep their mouths shut when it works. It's true.

Also, I'm not going off the assumption that they have such knowledge, merely that anyone with an open mind, the ability to read in their language of choice, and some free time can do it. Why am I "assuming" anything when instead, I'm merely asking what's legit on these items and what isn't? I don't understand your hostility, it honestly seems misplaced.

Koma: Much appreciated.
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Re: Cosmetic Editing: Limitations.

Post by cometodru »

LOL I bear no hostility towards you or anyone in your guild. Trust me, and my guild will fully agree with me, if and when I choose to be hostile, it will, without any doubt, be apparent. But for now, no hostility.

I don't think multiclienting is cheating. I just don't see a need for it at all. If you don't have a 1:1 player to character count for whatever reason, you shouldn't offset through multiclienting. Different issue, so I'm going to stop there and leave those words there for now.

Most of the GRF edits on eAthena are purely cosmetic. Now if say, and I hope this never happens without it being an official change, Esma were allowed on players, and people began modifying warm wind to anticipate elemental damage, then yes... But then again, how do you prove they're not just memorizing the original animations? Because I've actually learned which animations go with which element. At least, I'd hope I've learned them after playing Soul Linker as a main for two years. Anywho... Aside from what's openly given on eAthena boards, most people wouldn't even begin to know where to look for skill animations to modify unless it's point blank stated, "It is this file." I can see that you want to err [Did I use that right?] on the side of caution, but the average RO player can't do anything past cosmetics, and the ones who can can be spotted a mile away.

It also takes some degree of developmental knowledge to recreate animations properly. Aside from people who I know actually create things for the game, I've never encountered casual players who would go so far as to learn the motions of learning how to do mods.

But all this boils down to, how are you going to prove it without knowing exactly how they're modding? Knowing what and how are two different concepts.
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Re: Cosmetic Editing: Limitations.

Post by Phaiyte »

cometodru wrote:how are you going to prove it without knowing exactly how they're modding?
That isn't what this thread is about at all.
But to answer the question:
you can't unless someone gets a hold of said modded grf and plays the game with it.
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