BUff for extended classes

[Haelstrom]

You're missing the point.

Transcendent classes shouldn't be superior in every aspect simply because they're transcendent. It does not take that long to max-level a transcendent and I doubt anyone with a lick of sense wants a series of classes to not be competitive solely because they're not main-tier classes. =P

Odd comparison, but if we delve into a different genre of game like Team Fortress 2, regardless of the amount of time it takes to achieve (x) with (y) character, people want at the end of the day for each class there to be plausible. And they are. That is what is important, especially in an MMO of any sort.

I and the topic starter both stated we'd be fine with the extended having to basically level up twice to gain such status.

As for "they made it therefore they are right" - I'm afraid while Gravity did an amazing job, they were hardly flawless. If they were, difficulty and time aside, we'd see no changes to this server from a simple 1x rate with no custom features whatsoever; a classic example of some of their head-scratching decisions is a bow called the Roguemaster Bow that cannot be equipped by Rogue class.

Perhaps, Gravity has a long-term plan for them we've not seen yet. But the time it'd take to finally announce this, make it available for testing, implement it live, it to get into eAthena and finally come to our server here could take months or far longer; this would be a temporary 'fix' until such a situation occurs.

[Kiana]

Just to point out. if changes like this take place say for the extended classes the arguements such as the following will appear.
"why are the 1st classes not equal to the trans classes?"
"Why should classes such as star glad who are very powerful as it is, to have gear to make them even more poweful?"
"etc."

I will point out also some of ther benifits and downfalls of the extended classes; Please also read the other classes in game, no class is ever perfect.( Also I have seen everyone of these extended classes defeat a trans class at one time or another and win.)
All classes are weak against one class or another.

Taekwon Boy/Taekwon Girl
Combat Style: Melee Combatant
The first of the Extended Classes, the Taekwon Boy or Taekwon Girl are martial artists of the martial art of Taekwondo. To this end, they are not able to use any weapons, though they may equip most types of armor. Implemented into iRO in September, 2006 as part of Episode 10.3 Noghalt, they are the newest first job to iRO. While there is no formal guild for this class as there is for the other classes, a player may choose this job in Payon.

Special Note: Also Become quite powerful when ranked, and also can defeat most trans classes when in combat.


Gunslinger
Combat Style: Ranged Combatant
The second of the Extended Classes, gunslingers use guns and bullets of all varieties to inflict damage upon their enemies from a distance. There are no second jobs for the gunslinger job and gunslingers are unable to transcend, but to make up for this the maximum job level for gunslingers is 70 rather than the usual 50. They have many disadvantages when compared with other ranged classes; gunslingers have lower attack power while using higher ASPD weapons (gatling gun, and revolver), or lower attacking speed when using higher attack power weapons (shotgun, and grenade launcher), however they have the biggest attack modifiers compared to their counterparts. They were implemented into iRO on January, 2007 as part of Episode 10.4 Hugel.


Ninja
Combat Style: Ranged/Melee Combatant, Offensive Spellcaster
The third of the Extended Classes, ninja, specialize in using a combination of elemental magic of the three primary elements and throwing kunai and shuriken at their enemies. There is some confusion on the usage of shuriken. Two types of shurikens are available to ninjas, the standard throwing shuriken that act like arrows and the Fuuma Shuriken, a large shuriken used as a permanent weapon. Like gunslingers, there are no second jobs for ninja and they cannot transcend. They are compensated for this by having a maximum job level of 70 rather than the normal 50. They were implemented into iRO on January, 2007 as part of Episode 10.4 Hugel.


Soul Linker
Combat Style: Melee Combatant, Offensive Spellcaster and/or Supportive Class
Soul Linkers are Taekwon Kids who have given up the martial art in favor of the continued development of their spiritual abilities. As Taekwon Kids you are melee combatant, while Soul Linker is more of a supportive class, which means you'll having a hard time during Taekwon time as except if you are using Battle builds, you'll have next to none STR. While they lose their ability to use taekwondo kicks in combat, the skills of this job focus on maximizing the ability of other classes either by bestowing, temporarily, additional skills upon them or enhancing the potency ones they already have. Like Taekwon Kids and Taekwon Masters, there is no formal guild for Soul Linkers. Since they call on the ancient spirits of legendary warriors, it takes huge amounts of SP even an accomplished Soul Linker with the prodigy to talk to the dead gets exhausted. Soul Linkers are unique in the fact that they are able to equip Counter Dagger, a special dagger that adds Critical rate by a high amount, and this has leads to the rise of the Battle Linker build, a supportive Linker that maximizes STR stat to do strong physical damage, allowing them to hunt on their own (unlike the standard full support Linker who has a very hard time in hunting as all they can do is support, different from full support Priests who at least still have offensive Heal). This type of Linker won't have a hard time during Taekwon time since they have STR.



Taekwon Master
Combat Style: Melee Combatant
Known as Kwonsung, Star Knight or Star Gladiator in other localizations, these are Taekwons who have mastered their skills, and can convert a book's power. The Taekwon Master can use various skills to get an advantage on certain maps or versus monsters. Possible advantages include increased experience gains from monsters, improved attack/defense, or other improved stats.


I would also like to see more imput on this subject from the community, without bickering.
Information taken from the following links.
http://wiki.wegame.com/Ragnarok_Online_Classes/" TARGET="_blank

[tired]

what point is there to get?

every class is important, just because the stat or hp growth or ''gear restriction'' is different, that would make them useless?

simple

l2p

bye

ps; ro is mostly down to skill, not gear - sure its a factor but still doesnt change how the game works

just for the lawls, clearly 3x hp/sp (or was it 4x?) on a ranker isnt enough - maybe suggest double and give them 40k on a ranker huaheahe

[dudek18]

Hi all
great to see a more input on the matter
well good points that all classes are different thus have diffrent gear
makes sence i do no suggest ninjas wearing full plates or meteor plates :p

what i was merely suggesting was some basic gear like tidal/wool combo .
and some new gears be made availabel to certain classes...

the argument that why the its classes arent buffed is a bit odd
since i dont see any one playing a firts class and not getting a trans...
also as per my siggetsion was not to make the extended class just powerfull at 99
was to make the lvl the same amount as the trans ..
which would mean the same and getting to first class rebirth and then becoming trans
so really i dont see it as that much of a argument

all extended classes dont need to be buffed in the same way
some need little and some need more
like the gunslingers damage potential needs no buffs,,
which is bit lower but stilll comparable to the trans compatriots
on the other hand their defensive skills are just way to underpowered
where with 99 agi u can hit only 200 flee as compared to 230 of a sniper...unbuffed (approx value )
and a hp ppol which is like 2.5k lower ...
a defence rating which is also underpar just like flee

thus i guess each class will require a bit balancing ,,in some arenas only
as u say star gladiators are powerful i haven't played much so i cant comment really on what their status is
i do have some exp with ninjas and gunslingers and i do see the gap in HP really being a very desisive matter

ofcourse a class can beat the trans some time
but if u play with equal gear and skill do u actually believe a extended class stands a chance againt the trans
ill say with equal gear and skill the chance for a extended class is very bleak..probably if ur lucky ,,,

the hp pool really comes into play in woe ..where there is a lot of damage sources..
and really without being capable to soak in a bit really the chances to even stand a chance is just luck
or great guild-mates ...and if so ur more of a liability than any help..

the changes can just be explained as balancing changes
they need not be done for every class only the class that needs them
as in any other mmo .

One thing i can assure u the more options available to u really make game more interesting
letting the extended classes just rot is a bit of waste of some really great classes

[Haelstrom]

Just to point out. if changes like this take place say for the extended classes the arguements such as the following will appear.
"why are the 1st classes not equal to the trans classes?"

Because they are not the ultimate form of their respective classes. The extended listed are.

"Why should classes such as star glad who are very powerful as it is, to have gear to make them even more poweful?"

Very powerful -in some contexts*. This has again been explained. The proposed changes are nothing that would over-buff any individual class; it's to give a semblance of balance where extended can be on par with Transcendent in a competitive setting. Otherwise, they are completely useless classes save rare niches.

I and I'm sure the others posting here are well aware of the class premises and bonuses. The point remains that extended have underwhelming stat bonuses per jLVL, lack the raw HP/SP many transcendent hold, and cannot equip quite a bit of higher-level gear currently on the market. Their highest level possibility is battleground gear that they can obtain, and even then, they're still lacking in comparison to their transcendent alternates in the areas outlined.

No one here is saying an extended can't do well in WoE, PVP, or PVM; again, refer to my "twig versus M16" analogy.

[Aredhel]

Just to point out. if changes like this take place say for the extended classes the arguements such as the following will appear.
"why are the 1st classes not equal to the trans classes?"

Because they are not the ultimate form of their respective classes. The extended listed are.

I'm coming in rather late, but I'd like to say that this the answer to that question should be, if nothing else, common sense. What sense would it make to have a beginner class, which, mind you, you will NOT be staying as forever, ever be as powerful as their final-stage forms? That's like having a Novice and giving it a gimped God-mode where they're as powerful as Fallen Bishop from the get-go. The extended classes Gunslinger and Ninja are, indeed, 1st class characters, but lack the ability to become stronger unlike the original six classes, and Taekwons. They may get a bonus 20 job levels, but what good does that do them? 70 job levels, and their bonus stats are still crap.

While I'm on stats, the HP/SP pools for Gunslingers and Ninjas is ridiculous as well. People clearly see this. GRAVITY did something good when they made Extended classes, but they did something oh-so very wrong when they made their mechanics.

[Salad]

First of all, it seems a little backwards to create a server that has near no custom items (that affect gameplay), and choices such as being only able to warp to the first floor of dungeons (preventing a lot of cheese) and then want to make a pretty big choice, that is to buff certain classes.

Extended classes are meant to be a bit of a novelty, they don't have to level again at nearly 3x experience requirements, and although Ninja and Gunslinger job levels take more experience than your standard 2nd class job levels even at 1-50, they're much stronger than non-trans second class jobs considering. If you're missing some of their potential which is usually rather unique and ridiculously powerful if used right then here, let me highlight a few:
Star Gladiators, if you aren't aware, are one of the highest end MVP and boss monster hunting/killing characters with Heat. Even if you can only memo 3 maps, they level so ridiculously fast killing boss type monsters that you can easily make multiple, even on 1x rates. You're dealing what I believe is around 30 hits per second which can have element, card modifiers, pierce defense and flee (Though you would need to pot) to basically destroy anything that can't be shoved back. With higher tier equipment like Dracula card, abysmal knight cards and Assumptio/Soul Linker buffs you can literally mob the Satan Morroc mob filled map and come out with high HP and all of them dead.
"Buff Taekwon Ranker"

There's a reason why there can only be ten Taekwon Rankers on the server. The reason being, they're ludicrous when ranked, and can even beat Lord Knights when it comes to being giant, annoying meat shields that eat you. 3x HP/SP, the ability to SPAM kicks (spam AoE, almost perma stunlock and stun) and if they manage to get away, you just flying side kick towards them. Running + Sprint mode + Flying Side Kick deals damage almost on par with EDP which is terrifying, alongside a passive 20% chance to dodge everything and flying side kick in retaliation, along with the ability to leap over obstacles away from danger or into the fray. The ability to use every element is also possible for them, and even without weapons (which saves on some zeny for weapons!) they can deal some terrifying damage in PVM.

You have to keep all of that in mind while remembering the passive +10% attack power that all Taekwon classes receive per party member, just being in a party by yourself is +10% and in a WoE party that's pretty terrifying!

Soul Linkers are one of the most annoying classes in PvP/WoE to deal with, being able to dodge any attack a number of times, and reflect magic which can effectively wipe out an entire precast if they are not soul linked (and holding crystal fragments, which requires some grind and even more of their precious weight space.) As if they weren't hard enough to kill, they can easily Leap and use Running to get away. This is forgetting about their namesake, the Soul Links which massively buffs a lot of classes, especially in PVP/WoE. 1.5x to 2x damage on the already deadly EDP Sonic Blow alongside reducing delay is terrifying, make Stalkers almost impossible to chase after and impossible to dispel (making them keep their copied skills easily), alongside the aforementioned Wizard Soul Link which protects them from the class they're being buffed from. This is strictly on WoE terms, as Crusader link quadraples Shield Boomerang damage per second with doubling damage, reducing delay by half and even making it impossible to miss. This is forgetting the Soul Linker soul link itself, which allows a Soul Linker to give all of its defensive abilities to a player, letting any class kill off a precast, and be invincible to attacks, along with offensively "healing" enemies to drain them of their SP. Should I say more?

Ninja: Cicida Skin Shedding. It makes every physical class aside from Soul Breaker Assassin Cross and Falcon Assault from Snipers, useless. It completely dodges around three attacks for 24 SP, and that's if they actually land (Like Kyrie ... which also takes priority over it.) Lightning Spear of Ice is similar to a second class skill, Jupitel Thunder, except it doesn't knock enemies back, meaning you can actually spam lower levels of it and nearly completely stunlock something (Magic goes through Concentration/Spear Dynamo, Endure and Frenzy) and then finish off with burst damage such as North Wind (Wind elemental Sharpshooting, an AoE spell that goes through Land Protector?!) or in PvM, Exploding Dragon is not too bad of a skill considering the elemental attribute and cast time, alongside Crimson Fire Formation which is a super buffed Firewall, perfect for keeping most non ranged enemies away.

Gunslinger: These guys are a little weird. They have pretty bad defensive capabilities, but have some if not the highest skill attack modifiers of any class, which is pretty spammable. What that means is if you have SP, you'll be seeing everything drop like flies. I don't have the exact numbers on me, but a friend calculated that in WoE conditions, a Gunslinger can kill a Gypsy (a good one in WoE would be full VIT and possibly AGI and be decked with defense such as two alligator rosaries) in around three seconds, if they aren't potting. (A pretty fast time to drop, especially if you aren't paying attention, and all from one source!) I don't remember what skill he used to test this, I'm sorry. Aside from not having bragi + sniping suit Sharpshooting as a great range AoE skill, they can murder things pretty fast again, if they have SP.

I hope that's enough on some people's plates, this took a while to type up, heh.

[dudek18]

Insightful suggestions
Now let me tell u what happens in woe..
we go like 80 vit get about 7/8k hp with all the vit we stack which a lowerst trans gets with almost no vit....
just enter a pre cast and dont have any hp to possible last through it
so yes like i have stated the damage capabilities of the extended classes are good
little lower than a trans im sure any trans class is capable of dropping the gypsy faster than the gs
and the only way to do so would be with desperado spam and getting lucky hits
BUT the problem is to desperado u need to be in melee range
which with ur pathetic hp pools u cant even reach

i wasn't suggesting a complete buff for all extended classes just some in areas where they really suffer
well but if u just want them to be novelty classes then fine ok no one cares..
this post was about making more classes viable rather than novelty .

the defensive ability of the extended classes arent really an option in woe where there are multiple damage sources..
without the availability of trans gear and decent Hp pool, these classes are really struggling to be competitive.

[Aredhel]

@Salad - Just wanted to point out that Sharpshooting is a Sniper skill, not Gunslinger. ^^;

[Haelstrom]

First of all, it seems a little backwards to create a server that has near no custom items (that affect gameplay), and choices such as being only able to warp to the first floor of dungeons (preventing a lot of cheese) and then want to make a pretty big choice, that is to buff certain classes.

They're not even somewhat the same concept, though; the former is meant to make us not be as lazy, the latter is to make a series of classes (truly) viable.

Extended classes are meant to be a bit of a novelty,

Nope. Gravity's never stated this. They're supposed to be viable, because otherwise, they're a waste of time and class slots.

[Edit]: It was brought to my attention by Kiana this was stated by Gravity (that they're to be a novelty), but as I've already stated, were we to merely go by Gravity's every choice, Amistr'd be a copy-paste of iRO now wouldn't it?

There's flaws in their decisions, a number of which I include to be:

-Gear description fallacies (Roguemaster Bow..)
-Priority in bug fixing (alternate Vanilmirth and demihuman bug..)
-Cash Shop..

Ergo, this is hardly a valid point. If Gravity's intention was to bring in a series of classes that're less than the mainstream, though I highly doubt that was the original intent (more likely, they grew disinterested in continuing these classes and instead have been far more interested in Renewal, 3rd classes, and the potential new extended although I'm not counting those until they've truly been officially announced) - ergo, they put these individual classes to the wayside, letting them grow stagnant the way of the Super Novice. Soul Linker's already-outdated Soul Link hierarchy is a great example of the interest they've paid to the Taekwon tree.

So if one's only argument was "Gravity wanted it this way," I'd suggest you remove every feature of this server that differs from official, and I mean every single one from shortcut NPCs to increased rates to drop tweaks, the whole nine yards.

Of course, you'd likely say "..but that's senseless-"

Stop there. You've your own answer on why "WORKING AS INTENDED" doesn't flow with this subject.

If you're missing some of their potential which is usually rather unique and ridiculously powerful if used right then here, let me highlight a few:

In advance: I'm certainly not missing the potential of the extended. I know every single extended class in detail and their every advantage. Not to sound arrogant, but I have played Ragnarok since back in the day on Loki when Rogues were able to MVP Backstab glitch; I'm well aware of what extended are capable of. I'm also well aware of where they falter and are frankly lesser than transcendents in terms of raw stats, so much so that they're not as viable, period. That is the problem. A series of classes shouldn't be without fail less than others just because they're not main classes, that does not class balance make.

Star Gladiators, if you aren't aware, are one of the highest end MVP and boss monster hunting/killing characters with Heat. Even if you can only memo 3 maps, they level so ridiculously fast killing boss type monsters that you can easily make multiple, even on 1x rates. You're dealing what I believe is around 30 hits per second which can have element, card modifiers, pierce defense and flee (Though you would need to pot) to basically destroy anything that can't be shoved back. With higher tier equipment like Dracula card, abysmal knight cards and Assumptio/Soul Linker buffs you can literally mob the Satan Morroc mob filled map and come out with high HP and all of them dead.

That's nice. Except the proposed changes would hardly change that fact at all, but would make them viable in PVP/WoE.

"But they already are! Heat can drain the Sp of those around the Emp, and Union can.."

No. Even with insane reduction gear, any competent guild can drop a SG instantly, especially if they decide to go into Union. They are, I would say, the most potent of the extended classes - but their MVP capabilities are less impressive when you figure near any Champion can accomplish the same results by chain-Asura / leave / Asura / leave / Asura'ing. At most, SG's have an advantage on this server in this area solely because they can accomplish more in one run than a Champion on MVPs we can't memo the map to.

"Buff Taekwon Ranker"
There's a reason why there can only be ten Taekwon Rankers on the server. The reason being, they're ludicrous when ranked, and can even beat Lord Knights when it comes to being giant, annoying meat shields that eat you. 3x HP/SP,

3x mediocre HP and SP = competent HP/SP.

the ability to SPAM kicks (spam AoE, almost perma stunlock and stun)

They have to get close, and while they do of course have FSK, if again in WoE you allow a TR to kick-chain one of your demi-human reduction laden'd friends, you're either:

A. Being a jackass to said guild mate. =P
B. Not paying attention.

and if they manage to get away, you just flying side kick towards them. Running + Sprint mode + Flying Side Kick deals damage almost on par with EDP

I want to meet the horrible Assassin Cross who with EDP and Soul Link only manages to pull the damage Sprint Mode + FSK offers.

which is terrifying, alongside a passive 20% chance to dodge everything and flying side kick in retaliation,

Lots of HP, little durability to begin with.

along with the ability to leap over obstacles away from danger or into the fray. The ability to use every element is also possible for them, and even without weapons (which saves on some zeny for weapons!)

As opposed to having weapons which means there is significant damage and card effects they can never truly make up for even with various bonuses.

they can deal some terrifying damage in PVM.

OOH LORDY~! They can kill monsters! No other class before them has been capable of 1-shotting them there AI controlled creatuhrs, but them Taekwons now..!

You have to keep all of that in mind while remembering the passive +10% attack power that all Taekwon classes receive per party member, just being in a party by yourself is +10% and in a WoE party that's pretty terrifying!

Fighting Chant at level 5 gives 10% per party member on base attack only, not including any extra effects. It also scales poorly with buffs, i.e.:

"ATK above 500%, the calculation is fixed to (100 * Bonus%) + 500%."

Not to mention again, they lack the ability to wield Hydras or Skeleton Soldiers.

Finally, let me conclude the whole list with: if a Taekwon Ranker gives enough VIT to be durable, they are Demo city'd. Ironically, you state an LK should fear them - but if an LK runs even a bit of Vit, they should have absolutely no problem downing a Taekwon Ranker. Know why?

There's a rule to Rankers: if you can stun it, you can kill it. If you cannot, you're likely going to die. No character with half-decent vit / offensive output should die so easily to a Ranker that they actually fear them. Especially in WoE - and then outside of WoE, besides the fact LK can use Endure / BB the Ranker too far away for their current chain to operate, giving a second or so of an opening to smash them as soon as they FSK back in - an LK should still outlast a Ranker because they've that many more means to survive. Hell, an LK worth their salt uses Berserk as a second life right before their HP reaches 0, you really think a Ranker's going to be their death-blow with competent job bonuses?

Soul Linkers are one of the most annoying classes in PvP/WoE to deal with, being able to dodge any attack a number of times,

Dispell.

HWAHAHAHAH, YOUR POWER IS POWERLESS IN OUR PRESCENCE (One-shots Soul Linker.)

and reflect magic which can effectively wipe out an entire precast if they are not soul linked (and holding crystal fragments, which requires some grind and even more of their precious weight space.)

Good. Anything that makes mindless precasts cry is wonderful to me. If they spent a fraction of a second watching the doorway for what target's entering versus just mindlessly slamming their fists onto F2, F3, etc. - they wouldn't have that problem, now would they?

As if they weren't hard enough to kill, they can easily Leap and use Running to get away.

And then what?

A Soul Linker gets past your precast for argument's sake, gets by your Emp.. and what are they going to do?

Yes, they have heavy survival provided your guild's not focused and (frankly) not very informed, but what can they do with it without ridiculous gear composition?

If you say "recall," I really want to meet this fabled guild.

This is forgetting about their namesake, the Soul Links which massively buffs a lot of classes,

Because job bonuses being competent somehow make Soul Links more powerful or more/less usable than they already are by nearly every guild as SL alts.

This is forgetting the Soul Linker soul link itself, which allows a Soul Linker to give all of its defensive abilities to a player, letting any class kill off a precast, and be invincible to attacks, along with offensively "healing" enemies to drain them of their SP. Should I say more?

Yes. You should.

You seem to balance a class and their WoE strength off whether they can survive the most inane, bare-bones basic defense in RO history that should have died long, long ago: the precast.

Again, I'm glad there's a way of getting past mindless precast. To the rest: you need to read the skills more. They're not nearly as potent even in tandem as you think, and would likely already be wasted by the time said Ka-buffed individuals got to the Emp Room. This is again a moot point though, because no Soul Link-related capabilities are affected positively or negatively by any changes proposed.

Ninja: Cicida Skin Shedding. It makes every physical class aside from Soul Breaker Assassin Cross and Falcon Assault from Snipers, useless.

No.

It dodges skills that are affected by % cards. It does not dodge quite a few skills, an example being High Speed Cart Ram.

Lightning Spear of Ice is similar to a second class skill, Jupitel Thunder, except it doesn't knock enemies back, meaning you can actually spam lower levels of it and nearly completely stunlock something

Besides the fact it's horrendously weak and to do so would mean you've gone Magic build with Cicada which is immediately wrong (Magic is horrible for WoE versus pure physical and a Hide clip), in regular PVP, classes have many means of escaping that stun. In WoE however, you'll be lucky to kill off a weak'un with that strategy..

..provided their guild and/or party let you.

Ninja aren't the most durable folks I'm afraid, again less so to the uninformed - what guild would allow a Ninja to spam any of their bolt skills on a single player all the way to death through potion spamming and all is inconceivable to me.

and then finish off with burst damage such as North Wind (Wind elemental Sharpshooting, an AoE spell that goes through Land Protector?!)

Besides the fact that's wrong, I'm curious: where is this horrible, mythical guild that allows Taekwon Rankers to out-FSK their EDP Sonic Blow Crosses, lets Soul Linkers get to their Emperiums, and lets Ninjas chill on the side bolt-locking down their teammates?

or in PvM, Exploding Dragon is not too bad of a skill considering the elemental attribute and cast time,

Not too bad a skill in PVM!?

..Overpowered.

alongside Crimson Fire Formation which is a super buffed Firewall, perfect for keeping most non ranged enemies away.

Besides the fact a variety of classes have easy means of closing the gap there, I wouldn't call it a buffed Firewall perse' because you can't pull off the effects a Vertical Fire Wall could employ, or employ 3 Firewalls in key locations. It's useful, certainly - but against ranged and against a majority of melee, not really.

Gunslinger: These guys are a little weird. They have pretty bad defensive capabilities, but have some if not the highest skill attack modifiers of any class, which is pretty spammable. What that means is if you have SP, you'll be seeing everything drop like flies. I don't have the exact numbers on me, but a friend calculated that in WoE conditions, a Gunslinger can kill a Gypsy (a good one in WoE would be full VIT and possibly AGI and be decked with defense such as two alligator rosaries) in around three seconds, if they aren't potting. (A pretty fast time to drop, especially if you aren't paying attention, and all from one source!) I don't remember what skill he used to test this, I'm sorry. Aside from not having bragi + sniping suit Sharpshooting as a great range AoE skill, they can murder things pretty fast again, if they have SP.

Problem is, besides the fact you need to be right on the enemy for two of their highest damaging skills, and I'm talking a cell away. Combine that with the fact that even full Vit, they're squishy - and the fact their natural SP is just horrid, and you get the Gunslinger. The Sniper that could.

I hope that's enough on some people's plates, this took a while to type up, heh.

It's cool. I appreciate the difference in opinion; I just find a majority of what you say to either be implausible or incorrect. Such is the essence of debate: if everyone agreed with just one side, it'd hardly be a challenge.

Incidentally, it makes me want to create a guild where our policies are as thus:

1. Listen, Sin+'s? Equip no card, weapon level 1 katars with no special effects or refine rate, and go in without Soul Linker / about 15 STR. Why? Just do it!
2. Hey guys, about Soul Linkers? When you see an SL step in the entrance way, just roll your face across your F keys.
3. IT'S A RANKER! Lord Knights who should be able to out-survive them and never be stun-locked, RUN IN FEAR!! Us VIT Novices will handle this! [Giggles at the weak Ranker.] You silly.
4. Ninja with magic!? One HSCR can kill him, but.. as I watch him hit my demihuman resistance super-bulky Paladin for less than 1k a full cast, I can't help but feel..

.. fear.. like if I try to intervene here, he might kill me with just one glance..

(Spots Dragon Formation, and looks down at his bow that combined with an extra attack source, should make it nearly impossible to keep Cicada up fast enough.) ... lord help me.
5. Hey guys! It's a Star Gladiator, hoppin' platforms! Too bad he's terribly squishy and should never get to the Emperium to Union it!

..ohp, he pre-Union'd, everyone's afraid of that! Except that every hit from Union against another player takes away 8% of your max HP and if you go below 20% at all, you instantly die.

What a jerkface! MVP'in' like a baller on a few maps we don't already Champ spam.. let him through to the Emp, he's just too powerful!
6. IT'S A GUNSLINGER, LET HIM WALK RIGHT UP TO YOU AND DESPERADO even though they can be 1-2 shot by nearly anything in our arsenal and have no means to close the gap save walking!

[Pneuma.] Wow! They can't do a damn thing until they're literally 1 cell away from me! What should I.. do..?

.... ooh, I'll play some Linkin Park, that always gets me motivated. CRAAAWWLING IIIN MY SKIIIn - [1 cell Desperado'd, which is the insane damage your friend was likely referring to. It is an AoE, but the farther out it goes, the damage drops significantly.]

UHNNNN what! That made no sense, Gunslingers are OP..! [Mad face.] grrr!
6. Professor?! Dispell, I.. Pffft! What?! The hell is that?! I-.. pffttt!
7. "Hey guys! Maybe these classes are effective in the right circumstances, but simply lack the raw stats needed to be effective on average, and that's why people view them as a Novelty instead of unstoppable killing machines - because they still fall behind versus main classes in virtually every department save a few rare niches!" ~Happy-Face Professor

"... Your treason is punished by death." ~Guild Leader, pre-shooting the Professor in the face.
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Also, I feel I should cover Desperado in detail:

It is an AoE that uses 10 bullets and hits in a whomping 7x7 area. At 10, it hits for a whomping 550% attack per hit [provided your attack isn't terrible, that's decent damage]; the truly lethal part is getting hit up-close, i.e. 1 cell - which gives the possibility of being hit by 550% .. 10 times.

Very lethal. Except again, no Gunslinger should get to pull it off, unless you're really not paying attention. In that respect, it's like an Asura Champ; if you have a Thief character or a Hide Clip, they have an attack that can wipe you off the face of the earth.. but if you're paying attention, it should never, ever land. And then they're open.

Except Desperado's hardly as powerful as a Guillotine Fist, of course - and rather than just a few counter classes, every class should have no problem against the GS in that department again due to their squishy nature, but the premise on avoidance is the same. Then in terms of pure ranged-combat, they're significantly behind Snipers in every core stat.

Let me make this a little more clear.


(Expand the size on it, of course, with the upper-left Magnifying Glass.)

Now, it's an AoE that operates like this. Has quite a nice range. Maximum of 10 hits a cell, 550% each. Sounds quite lethal.

How it actually works though, is this: see the green border cells? That's the largest extent of the Desperado. You're lucky to get 1-2-3 hits there. Pneuma.

The orange, your chances are slightly increased, Pneuma.

The red, your chances are slightly increased, and it bypasses Pneuma {though not Safety Wall..}, but not so much so you should expect the max number of hits. On average, you're looking at 6~8 hits in that sweet spot. Even then though, up-close can do less hits; it's not unheard of to use it and find the guy right in your face only taking 2-3 hits. Furthermore, Safety Wall and such can negate a majority of those hits (if not all).

Now, "..that still sounds really powerful" you might say. And yeah. I would hope.

Except let's take one another of Gunslinger's skills: Full Buster. At max, it has 1300% ATK, Blind Chance 10% on yourself. (Blinder is a damned must. XD)

With ideal gear, you still will often do against any half-geared player, maybe 1~2k a shot with a hellacious aftercast delay; Bragi helps that significantly, but it's still one of your bread and butter skills (the other being Rapid Shower) in range. Desperado really needs to hit that target up-close to be effective, which means they're very good at being Emp guards - but you'll need a Cranial shield (yes, that's right, half the time as a Gunslinger, you won't have a gun equipped) and be able to quickly switch to it post-Desperado to be effective there.

In comparison, measly Archer's Double Strafe does a consistent 380% damage [note, with far more dex possible as a Sniper], can be spammed like crazy with high AGI/ASPD (believe it or not, AGI is mostly useless for WoE GS, sadly.) - and it consumes one arrow. Consistent.

In 10 arrows, you'd have 380% x10 or 3,800% solid (with a far higher attack pool and no need to compromise your range.)

With Desperado, you have anywhere from 550% ~ 550% x10 damage, with a lower attack pool, and it consumes 10 bullets whether you were doing poorly or no. At level 10, it takes 50 SP - and a Gunslinger has very poor natural SP, necessitating high INT. So the cost is significantly higher, and the risk is much higher - with little to no guarantee it'll get that damage in.

So anyone who believes a GS can Desperado to victory is again, uninformed. It's an effective skill.. but not at all as much as you might think. Not to say a Gunslinger can't be effective in WoE, nor any of the extended - but that they again lack the job bonuses and in a few extended cases, the raw HP/SP needed in whole.