BUff for extended classes

[Neryth]

It's true that their stats could do with some improvement, but attaining balance between classes is a tricky thing, which is why most servers don't tamper with it in the first place. I still believe a Counter Dagger based Soul Linker is ridiculous, as you could do the same thing it does more efficiently if you simply picked another class. Snipers, for example, can obtain excellent crit, attack from a range, and double as trappers in WoE. LKs are obviously beefier, etc. etc. so I fail to see how Soul Linkers should be mained as a Crit STR build. As far that comment about no one maining SLers, or was it support SLer, I've seen it done on multiple occasions by people in serious competitive guilds.

I've already checked out your explanation of Desperado damage and range, but that doesn't change the results. It HAS been used consistently to great effect in WoE, and crunching numbers and the likelihood of people stepping into the optimal range won't change that. I feel that the only problem is that this is a low population server, while most of RO's game mechanics and depth shine when there's a much higher population. If you're going to try and balance things for a low population server, it'll take a lot more than HP/stat changes. But that's just my two cents.

[Mitsuo]

I've already checked out your explanation of Desperado damage and range, but that doesn't change the results. It HAS been used consistently to great effect in WoE, and crunching numbers and the likelihood of people stepping into the optimal range won't change that.

you do know I could just Cart Term you out of the critical range of Desperado and kill you in about 2 shots and survive with well more than half my HP. Desperado is really only effective at the emp room at either the enterance or on the emp itself. And i have been in RO servers for 7 years and rarely seen GS used effectively nor have I actually had one kill me before I killed it.

[Haelstrom]

It's true that their stats could do with some improvement, but attaining balance between classes is a tricky thing, which is why most servers don't tamper with it in the first place.

I agree to an extent. I believe it'd need testing, and that it'd likely need tweaked -especially- over time, but were it my decision, I'd rather give it a shot. No risks, no gain is an ever-applicable saying.

I still believe a Counter Dagger based Soul Linker is ridiculous, as you could do the same thing it does more efficiently if you simply picked another class. Snipers, for example, can obtain excellent crit, attack from a range, and double as trappers in WoE. LKs are obviously beefier, etc. etc. so I fail to see how Soul Linkers should be mained as a Crit STR build.

I'll not deny other classes do the job better. Merely that again, as it is, Soul Link slaves are what 98~99% of all Soul Linkers I have ever seen in my entire time playing RO have been utilized for. Which is of course understandable, it's their namesake after all - but to the point I know so many people who refuse to even max level them.

There's no point. They're in that respect like a Priest slave, except permanent-mode. Counter Dagger can be effective, and is the only viable way (currently) to utilize Soul Linker in any real way during WoE outside of again, just being a tool more than a character. So I confess my bias towards it, merely because I enjoy the premise even if the execution's admittedly poor.

As far that comment about no one maining SLers, or was it support SLer, I've seen it done on multiple occasions by people in serious competitive guilds.

I've seriously never seen someone (consistently) main a Soul Linker. I've seen people start as Soul Linkers, and be dedicated support mid-WoE until they've another class set afterward, but they always jump ship once they have another character set up. I'm sure there's some exceptions out there, but they'd be exceedingly rare.

I've already checked out your explanation of Desperado damage and range, but that doesn't change the results. It HAS been used consistently to great effect in WoE, and crunching numbers and the likelihood of people stepping into the optimal range won't change that.

I know it has, but as for the range: I can't stress enough that it simply reinforces a talent too many guilds, even huge and successful ones, seem to lack. Situational awareness. If I saw a Gunslinger trying to close the distance to me rather than attempting to stay as far away as their RS/FB allows, it's too obvious what they're trying to do and I adjust accordingly as best as the character I am then playing can. It's why I've literally never been killed by Desperado my entire time playing, save one instance when I really was just not paying attention at all.

I'm not at all denying its lethality, but again - its predictability coupled with the fact it's not consistent makes a huge difference and is why I brought both of said points up. It's literally that predictable; ergo my comment on the Emp guard, because that kind of forces an approaching player's hand.

I feel that the only problem is that this is a low population server, while most of RO's game mechanics and depth shine when there's a much higher population. If you're going to try and balance things for a low population server, it'll take a lot more than HP/stat changes. But that's just my two cents.

And that's perfectly understandable.

Any changes that would be made would doubtlessly need to be tweaked, I just think that it's important enough to get the ball rolling on rather than forsake due to its potential complexity.

[Neryth]

"Theoretically, I could..."

Theorycraft is fine, but if you've been playing for 7 years, then you know that it isn't as simple as that. WoE is a lot more chaotic than anyone in this thread has suggested, and using AoE to damage as many people as possible in as short a time as possible is incredibly effective. While it does ultimately come down to the individual judgment and skill of the players, AoE is often devastating, and waiting 10 minutes for that one moment to spring out of Cloaking, steal a Bragi, and wipe out all of the people who aren't on a LP can be well worth it. Likewise, you could employ them at areas people MUST cross, such as the other side of portals, on the emp, critical chokes, etc. etc.

The value isn't just in killing a lot of people, but also in being able to slow down a lot of people. That's why Gypsies and Clowns are invaluable for defenses. I mean, other than Loki's, Bragi, and Tarot spam.

Personally, I wouldn't play a Desperado Gunslinger without a Frilldora or Smokie at the very least. That's one other way of surpassing the "predictability" aspect of Desperado. Your enemies will be caught off guard if they're waiting for Gospel, standing around in the pre-emp, or any other similar situation. As long as their Land Protector is down for a few moments, there exists the potential to wreak havoc, which is exactly what Stalkers and SinXs do when not providing ridiculous DPS to the precast.

Finally, there's a VERY large difference between seeking "equivalence" with trans, and seeking to give Extended classes slight buffs. Obviously, I have nothing to say about TK Rankers, as I believe they surpass the potential of most trans classes in terms of overall utility, strength, and fortitude. The only balancing factor (and it's arguable) is that only 10 can exist on a server at a time. Then again, that's absolutely not a problem for low population private server players, so it can become rather cheesy.

[pasthesaltplese]

Congratulations on selectively picking at your opponent's argument, ignoring everything valid and refusing to acknowledge any of your own errors while completely disregarding any source information (thanks Nova, that's a good idea) in favour of now picking at technicalities and wording of the two Wiki articles instead of looking at the half dozen similarities between them, that actually highlight how they're the same skill when you look at the coding and replace the values with variables.

NOT.. THE SAME.. SKILL!

A WATER BALLOON DOES NOT A GRENADE FILLED WITH WATER MAKE REGARDLESS OF THEIR SIMILARITIES!

PLEASE BELIEVE ME!

Please believe me!

Incidentally, you've not addressed anything in this thread other than myself and one post. Hypocrisy must be delicious when it spews from your throat on a daily basis.

GJ. Also, that was probably a run-on.

Good laughs, bro. You'd get destroyed in any debate, as you'd be ineffectively picking at actual solid points they've brought up, while they drove in to your weakspot and punched you in the nuts.

My nuts are impervious to the factually incorrect and the irrelevant.

p.s., I haven't brought up the Gunslingers or SLers for quite a while,

You never did! You've made no relevant qualms regarding them at all, you've been going on about this Acid Demo / Vit argument like I insulted your mother.

as you have had nothing to actually say about them in response to my initial counterpoints. Congratulations on providing false information. It's like I'm in 1984!

You weren't born in 1984. Incidentally, nothing I have provided is false. Disagree with me and you are wrong. [Jut.]

Now, please. I would honestly love discussing with you in a civil manner the actual topic versus what your friend Salad got angsty over, but if this is all we can do, I might end up having to just respond to everything you say with "You mad." I don't want to do that. Really.

I'd feel mean.

Edit!!

Finally, while this thread may have become a tribute to my own boredom, it has also become a tribute to either your willingness to troll at hardcore, 110% power, warp factor 11 for an extended period of time, or your own stupidity and ability to use logical fallacies to repeatedly discredit yourself.

You mad!

Regardless, I'd rather not get this topic locked solely due to "arguing" with you, as delicious as it may be. We can take this to private messages, IM, etc. if you'd like, if you're that bored. But I'll not engage in discussion with you here any further.

[Haelstrom]

While I disagree on overall TR utility (I find them distinctly lacking in the strict definition of utility as much as being able to satisfy a singular niche albeit very well), I have to say I agree with the rest of your post. It's less in capabilities that I find the extended lacking as much as I find them lacking in terms of raw stats (with again, the exception of TR HP); the jBonuses are just poorly thought out and don't even span the 70 jLVLs say, Ninja/GS get and it overall feels like a lazy job, other points made along with the HP modifiers withstanding.

Theory-crafting perhaps, but I find it such only in the solution, not the problem - and to get a tangible, reasonable solution often times requires some good 'ol theory-crafting to even begin to see it take shape.

Also -

Boy, you can't even find the right-



You mad!

[pasthesaltplese]

While I disagree on overall TR utility (I find them distinctly lacking in the strict definition of utility as much as being able to satisfy a singular niche albeit very well), I have to say I agree with the rest of your post. It's less in capabilities that I find the extended lacking as much as I find them lacking in terms of raw stats (with again, the exception of TR HP); the jBonuses are just poorly thought out and don't even span the 70 jLVLs say, Ninja/GS get and it overall feels like a lazy job, other points made along with the HP modifiers withstanding.

Theory-crafting perhaps, but I find it such only in the solution, not the problem - and to get a tangible, reasonable solution often times requires some good 'ol theory-crafting to even begin to see it take shape.

Also -

Boy, you can't even find the right-



You mad!

oh i wasnt aware you had to use the original image of an internet meme in every case hence defeating the purpose of a meme oh no

if you really must know that is not even the image it originated from it started from text posts on sa (what how can this happen everything on the internet comes from images let me go take some pictures of my cat and caption them it will make me cool)

can i join your guild

[Haelstrom]

oh i wasnt aware you had to use the original image of an internet meme in every case hence defeating the purpose of a meme oh no

if you really must know that is not even the image it originated from it started from text posts on sa (what how can this happen everything on the internet comes from images let me go take some pictures of my cat and caption them it will make me cool)

I don't know where in the world you got all that mumbo jumbo from, I never stated it was the origin nor implied it. It's the superior image out there and thus, it is what I utilize. It surpasses all incarnations to date unless I create one, but that's cheating.

Also, yes. Yes you can. We've had noobs coming in and cleaning out our guild storage like taking trash is hardcore, so we welcome the power.

[pasthesaltplese]

oh i wasnt aware you had to use the original image of an internet meme in every case hence defeating the purpose of a meme oh no

if you really must know that is not even the image it originated from it started from text posts on sa (what how can this happen everything on the internet comes from images let me go take some pictures of my cat and caption them it will make me cool)

I don't know where in the world you got all that mumbo jumbo from, I never stated it was the origin nor implied it. It's the superior image out there and thus, it is what I utilize. It surpasses all incarnations to date unless I create one, but that's cheating.

Also, yes. Yes you can. We've had noobs coming in and cleaning out our guild storage like taking trash is hardcore, so we welcome the power.

thanks man i knew youd always be there for me. i hope i can be like you one day you seem pretty badass. can i join your guild

[Salad]

I'm in a bit of a hurry here (as I have some work to do) and I've been on RO all day but I noticed I sneezed a considerable amount throughout the day.
I didn't feel too compelled to post because some people misread my posts or had selective reading but I guess I should post something. (I said Gunslingers lacked Sharpshooting, never claimed Taekwon Rankers can kill Lord Knights, said Crimson Fire Formation and Exploding Dragon are excellent in -PvM-, not PvP etc.)

As someone who mains a Full Support High Priest I feel particularly offended by the implication that Soul Linkers are completely worthless and not worth playing, if they don't have offensive capabilities, especially when they have some very nice survivability and excellent support skills. It's true, one Soul Linker in a guild is pretty much stuck casting Soul Links on people (which a dualclient can't do too well either, considering the massive amount of dispelling and flying side kicking that often goes on) while buffing itself to stay alive and maybe wipe out all the precasting wizards (Some pretty nice lack of offense there!) but when you have two Soul Linkers together (I admit, having more than two is a bit redundant) and they link each other, neither can be dispelled in any shape or form and can start casting all of their Ka buffs on party members, effectively raising the survivability of any class alongside making opposing magic classes think twice about casting. In my previous server, I can't count the number of times my guild thought out loud "Man, I wish someone played Linker!" as opposed to dualclienting one in the corner to cast links on people with. Just because people are too hotheaded and want their class to be invincible and kill everything in one shot doesn't mean it should be done, especially on a class whose role is support.
Another class I particularly enjoy is Sniper, and I again feel a little offended that being lacking in offensive capabilities when it comes to WoE is something that should be fixed when Sniper has a very nice support role to play. I don't understand your comparison of Gunslinger to Sniper, and pointing out that you cannot use a shield on a Gunslinger while attacking simultaneously and then proceeding to mention Double Strafe, which suffers from the same problem, and although does damage over time, is worthless in WoE aside from a possible stunlock and status (in which arrow shower, sharpshooting and even ctrl clicking is far superior in) as the lack of burst damage makes it so you can outpot three double strafes in one or two mastelas etc.
This is also considering that for Double Strafe to be decent, you'd need a considerable amount of Agility and Dexterity, which most WoE snipers do not have the luxury of getting (AGI) because VIT is such a prominent and important stat alongside STR for the many traps and pots they'll need.
If you want to play a different role, then a good tip is to ... play another class.
Is your next suggestion to buff Battle Priest builds, so they can also attack in WoE? Let's take away some of the VIT and DEX bonuses of High Priest while we're at it too and add them to STR, so it's more viable! You're saying the Lord Knight equivalent Taekwon Ranker's around +150% buff from being in a party alongside their ability to spam 300% to 400% damage skills multiple times in a second isn't viable as killers (which I agree with, but you should remember that only a few things such as Asura Strike, EDP Linked -hey, you need a soul linker!- Sonic Blow, and Acid Demonstration are big threats by themselves.) but are suggesting people play Melee Ninjas, and Battle Linkers in WoE? The only thing they would be good at is annoying and drawing fire to open up room for their guild to come in and attack, which is ... exactly what a Taekwon Ranker's role is currently, and something it does quite well.

To be honest I'm not really understanding the point of the HP modifier debate. Yes, Extended has a lower modifier and thus get less for their buck (aside from Taekwon Ranker) than a lot of other classes but ... should we buff High Wizards too? They don't even get much room for VIT in their build, so they stun often and are dead once they stun thanks to probably the lowest HP modifier in the game. The room for large VIT in the build makes up for a bit of the low modifiers.

I disagree with the desire to buff Extended classes in PvP/WoE thus making them well-rounded, considering many of them have some excellent uses in PvM (You said Exploding Dragon is broken, which is quite a strong word to use) and to me, it just sounds like a desire to want to have all of the cake, so to speak. If that's the case, then I totally demand Snipers go through Pneuma with Double Strafe, or ignore the 40% ranged damage reduction in WoE ...

As confirmed by a Gamemaster, extended classes are meant to be a novelty class, much like Super Novice. Why is it that people accept that Super Novices are to be a novelty and strictly that, but argue for Extended then if they're also categorized this way? I don't understand the situations you provided, which are all strictly one Extended class character against an entire guild. Are you implying that you want a single character to be able to fend off and maybe kill off an entire guild?

If we were a server which heavily customized everything, then I would be all for this idea. However, we're talking about a server that offers little customs other than aesthetics and a stat/skill reset that actually considers some thinking, and a first floor Dungeon warper that adds some minor convenience. We do not follow iRO exactly, because I don't think many here would want to grind at 1x, but simply saving some time clicking monsters for hours on end =!= changing integral class balance. I don't believe Gravity was perfect with this game's balance, but that's a deep rooted problem in the design of the very game itself, than just a few classes. Example, there has to be cheese such as EDP Linked Sonic Blow or else it's virtually impossible to kill a properly geared and played character using ranked slim whites and mastela fruits possibly simultaneously (I do not know if Yggdrasil Seeds and Berries work in WoE on this server) until they run out of pots. That's just a corner Gravity designed itself into, and it'd take a lot of ambitious work to be able to fix it.