BUff for extended classes

[Neryth]

We're different people. First off, Salad is a filthy female. I'm not. Admittedly, she linked me here and I facepalmed for a good half hour. Secondly, you're hilarious. You obviously don't know the Area of Effect for Sharpshooting OR North Wind (Protip: They're identical.) Continue flaunting your own ignorance. It's amusing.

As the final blow to your utterly ignorant, delightfully shallow "argument", haven't you noticed that you're arguing against yourself at this point? Either VIT or Stun resist/immunity cards are required to beat stun, and yet Acid Demo beats VIT. Congratulations on beginning to grasp the fundamentals of game mechanics related to WoE!

Acid Demo > High Vit > Meteor Storm > Low Vit > Acid Demo...



Anyways, you can try to defend yourself as well as you want. This, "you're twisting my words!" joke is pretty good, as it was you who twisted your own words so as to obscure the flaws in your argument. Anyone capable of reading can see that I literally just posted cliffnotes of your points, only the quoted version of you actually acknowledges the logical fallacies, deceit, and clever manipulation used to get "the high ground".

p.s. I kind of suspected that your main point of defense would be, "THEY'RE THE SAME PEOPLE". I find that amusing, since we're actually not.

Cheers.

EDIT: In response to the Cicada Skin Shedding, you must have the memory of a goldfish not to remember what was previously posted.

Ninja: Cicida Skin Shedding. It makes every physical class aside from Soul Breaker Assassin Cross and Falcon Assault Sniper ...

example being High Speed Cart Ram.

Any skill that is affected % boosting cards will be blocked. Any skill / skill damage that is not and requires ATK, will hit. I merely gave another example, do you really need me to list every single skill in the game with that nature? Is Google that hard, you silly philosophy specter?

There are only 3 examples up there. Either you're lazy, or you're cornered. I'll give you a hint, since I actually did my research. Throw Kunai is another. Then again, if you actually think a melee ninja is viable for PvP/WoE, these words are most likely wasted on you.

[Haelstrom]

We're different people. First off, Salad is a filthy female. I'm not. Admittedly, she linked me here and-

Nailed it, I could tell from a mile away you weren't interested in the subject at all, you're a hired whiner. Awesome. (Ahem.) Proceed with your muddled counter-points, comrade. I'll ignore the fact the two skills are not at all the same and you calling me ignorant, stupid, dumb, and even a poopy face won't change that in the slightest.

As the final blow to your utterly ignorant, delightfully shallow "argument", haven't you noticed that you're arguing against yourself at this point? Either VIT or Stun resist/immunity cards are required to beat stun, and yet Acid Demo beats VIT.

Not at all. I'm not arguing with myself, simply pointing out the obvious: a Taekwon Ranker's chief advantage against any singular target revolves around stunnability. In your poor counter-argument, you seem to've gotten that point mixed around as though I were discussing their resistance to stuns.

Acid Demo > High Vit > Meteor Storm > Low Vit > Acid Demo...

I'm wondering when you're going to realize I've still never stated Acid Demo was the Taekwon Ranker's bane, merely an example of a problem with a few people's thoughts regarding what is chief to them..

Anyways, you can try to defend yourself as well as you want. This, "you're twisting my words!" joke is pretty good, as it was I who twisted your words and am now referring to your words as twisted, for this makes them twisted if you take what I said out of context with entirely false information. And if I can throw in a good 20-30 "stupid(s)," well, doesn't that make ME intelligent?

I couldn't resist. You must understand given it appears to be the only way you can conduct a debate/argument/verbal assault/grease rub against other people.

p.s. I kind of suspected that your main point of defense would be, "THEY'RE THE SAME PEOPLE". I find that amusing, since we're actually not.

Actually, you more or less are. Physically, no, emotionally, probably not. But when it comes to this topic, you came in without self-interest. You did so at this other individual's beck and call; to that end, you're nothing more than a cheap tool to try and slam down an incorrect point she failed to do so herself.

But hey. I actually like you. You're way cooler than that tired guy, all he could do was spam l2p and tl;dr from what I've seen of him. You articulate your mistaken approach, and I must honestly applaud you at this.

Cheers.

Ch-well damn, edits!

EDIT: In response to the Cicada Skin Shedding, you must have the memory of a goldfish not to remember what was previously posted.

Really? Because if I quote myself, I can't help but find the answer to this again.. let us try!

Any skill that is affected % boosting cards will be blocked. Any skill / skill damage that is not and requires ATK, will hit.

Any skill that is affected % boosting cards will be blocked. Any skill / skill damage that is not and requires ATK, will hit.

Any skill that is affected % boosting cards will be blocked. Any skill / skill damage that is not and requires ATK, will hit.

Do I need to list every skill of that nature for you? Is Google that hard?

By jove, I think I have. Jove.. I dislike myself for using that now.

Then again, if you actually think a melee ninja is viable for PvP/WoE, these words are most likely wasted on you.

If you think caster is superior to melee, you've never played ninja well my friend.

Away with you until you've more interesting arguments!

[Mitsuo]

I approve of the ideas originally stated in this thread. With all the latest updates if feels as if ninja and gunslinger have been thrown to the wayside.

[Neryth]

Summons the morning winds to blow past the target, with sharp blades of wind cutting through everything in its path. The wind cuts down a path towards the targeted enemy, and deals damage to all those in the area of effect (targeting is similar to the Sniper skill Focused Arrow Strike). The length of this 'path' varies based on the skill level, with a width of 3 cells. If the targeted opponent moves outside of the range of the damage path, it is possible to take no damage from First Wind. Enemies just outside of the path can still get hit but for very minimal damage.

First Wind has a short cast time, and no aftercast delay. This skill can be cast on Magnetic Earth. One Wind Stone is consumed when casting this skill.

Oh look, a source. This concept is foreign to you, so I'll explain it. I make a claim, and then I use at least one reliable "source" of information to back it up. Maybe you can start doing the same.

Not at all. I'm not arguing with myself, simply pointing out the obvious: a Taekwon Ranker's chief advantage against any singular target revolves around stunnability. In your poor counter-argument, you seem to've gotten that point mixed around as though I were discussing their resistance to stuns.

"Ironically", in order to defend against this "competent" extended class, you need VIT. Something that you say is also the bane of this extended class. IRRRROOOOOOONYYYYYY LOLOLOL. This is completely disregarding "flinching", which is an issue for everyone in WoE, and I guess you'd call that... their... second chief advantage? It doesn't really matter, as I've already made my point. For an extended class that takes considerably less effort to gear and level than a trans class, a TK ranker is already superior to a LK in utility, and on par in terms of meatiness. P.S., tumbling aka breakfall applies to Acid Demonstration too.

Finally, let me conclude the whole list with: if a Taekwon Ranker gives enough VIT to be durable, they are Demo city'd.

Taekwons don't need "enough VIT to be durable" in order to already outclass nearly every other trans class in terms of durability. A TK ranker "lacking durability" (VIT) is equivalent to most maxed out, geared out trans in terms of HP. I already pointed this out in the wall of text. I doubt you're even aware of HP growth multipliers though, so I'll leave that for another day. Your argument is already so full of holes and self-contradictions that it looks like swiss cheese. Ultimately, it comes down to AD > VIT > STUN > LOW VIT > AD, which is a problem for EVERY class that can only be solved by entering good character build planning and skill into the equation.

Finally, it's abundantly clear that you've never really WoE'd on a server with a real population. For example, iRO? kRO? Even certain private servers hit a high pop that breeds competition in WoE. I suggest checking one of them out sometime, and trying to play your physical ninja. ;)

FINALLY, finally, if you pride yourself on being a stalker, and you aren't aware that North Wind/Kamaitachi pierces Magnetic Earth (the same way Sharpshooting does hurf durf), you have yet to earn your stripes.

[Haelstrom]

Proof it's not the same skill.

Oh look, a source. This concept is foreign to you, so I'll explain it. I make a claim, and then I use at least one reliable "source" of information to back it up. Maybe you can start doing the same.

Can't argue with that.

"Ironically", in order to defend against this "competent" extended class, you need VIT. Something that you say is also the bane of this extended class. IRRRROOOOOOONYYYYYY LOLOLOL. This is completely disregarding "flinching",

Hm. I wanna cut you off real fast there and just say, you're over-using quotations. Gets old if you do it like 9x in one sentence.

I also want to go ahead and point out my answer to that statement:

I'm wondering when you're going to realize I've still never stated Acid Demo was the Taekwon Ranker's bane,

Something that you say is also the bane of this extended class.

You aren't reading my posts at all, are you? I mean completely fair enough, but you can at least try. To the TR being as "meaty" / utility-laden as a Lord Knight, you're regretfully off your rocker on both.

Taekwons don't need "enough VIT to be durable" in order to already outclass nearly every other trans class in terms of durability.

Raw HP =/= durable. You mad!

I already pointed this out in the wall of text. I doubt you're even aware of HP growth multipliers though, so I'll leave that for another day.

You're doing the tango with this VIT argument, aren't you?

Your argument is already so full of holes and self-contradictions that it looks like swiss cheese.

The tasty kind, or the kind you get at Krogers?

Ultimately, it comes down to AD > VIT > STUN > LOW VIT > AD, which is a problem for EVERY class that can only be solved by entering good character build planning and skill into the equation.

You're adorable. It's like I've already addressed this about 5x this one page now? And you're almost refusing to even begin to acknowledge that, so you just reword your prior argument, to which I either quote myself or mock you in response - do..

..do you see how far that's getting us? Or is this making you laugh like it is me, I was in a terrible mood pre-you coming on the scene here, but now I am jolly as 'ell. You've again my appreciation, both:

1. For only replying to my one post debunking your friend, proving you've absolutely no interest in the subject, you're just trying to get back at me for your YOU MAD friend. By the way: hi Salad! You mad!
2. For not reading.
3. For not knowing how to operate Google.
4. For making me laugh hysterically. I shouldn't laugh so much at something like this but you pull it off, comrade.
5. For likely getting this thread locked, but man if it isn't worth it.

And you keep editing things in dammit, it's like you're hoping I won't read it or something.

Finally, it's abundantly clear that you've never really WoE'd on a server with a real population. For example, iRO? kRO? Even certain private servers hit a high pop that breeds competition in WoE. I suggest checking one of them out sometime, and trying to play your physical ninja.

Been done. Besides the fact the population here isn't all that big (although I've confidence that'll change), I've been on servers with hundreds, I've been on servers with thousands, I've been on servers with 2. Your caster ninja has been done to death, and has consistently done poorly. Pro-tip: if you play as a Ninja and you don't have a Smokie Card, I won't rush to say you're bad, but you're just not that versed in the class and what is actually effective. Which would normally be rewarded with understanding and given the pros / cons of each side of the class, but since you're again just an argue-tank, you receive nothing except my growing Dr. Pepper depletion count.

1 can.

FINALLY, finally, if you pride yourself on being a stalker,

Now you're just scraping the barrel trying to get me mad. You silly.

and you aren't aware that North Wind/Kamaitachi pierces Magnetic Earth (the same way Sharpshooting does hurf durf),

They can both pierce Magnetic Earth therefore, they are the same skill! Wow, thank you!

you have yet to earn your stripes.

Stripes are ugly.

[Neryth]

deals damage to all those in the area of effect (targeting is similar to the Sniper skill Focused Arrow Strike)

Woah, it seems like it's similar to Focused Arrow Strike!

First Wind has a short cast time

Just like a certain skill you may be familiar with.

This skill can be cast on Magnetic Earth. One Wind Stone is consumed when casting this skill

Replace "Wind Stone" with "Arrow".

Focused Arrow Strike has a 20% base chance of bypassing enemy defense

I can vouch for North Wind having the same effect.

Range: 9 cells

Guess what two skills it says this for?

3x12

Hmm.

Enemies just outside of the path can still get hit but for very minimal damage.

Yeah, they're both very different.

Look. I'm tired of citing sources. That's something you're completely incapable of doing, anyways.

I'm wondering when you're going to realize I've still never stated Acid Demo was the Taekwon Ranker's bane

You certainly enjoy pretending you didn't say certain things. Things like,

Finally, let me conclude the whole list with: if a Taekwon Ranker gives enough VIT to be durable, they are Demo city'd.

So let me get this straight. If a TK gets enough VIT to be durable, and able to tank shit harder than a LK, they'll die to the bane of WoE-builds (which is the bane of all WoE-builds, surprisingly!). Once again, bullet kill Joe. Bullet is Joe's weakness!?!?!?!?!?

The TK Ranker = WoE build.
The bane of WoE builds = AD.
The bane of TK Rankers = AD.

I see you've already dropped both the SLer and Gunslinger in this argument, choosing to only argue over the point that was left ambiguous enough for you to defend without looking like a fool. The point stands that I shredded your original post, then you went out and decided to display your lack of knowledge concerning two widely-used skills at the same time.

Anyways, if you think I'm doing this as a favour to Salad, sure. Think what you want. However, that's just another logical fallacy to add to the list. The source of the point does not necessarily invalidate the point itself, otherwise we could all use ad homs to decide everything.

Oh, and about meatiness.

22k HP, just as susceptible to AD as the LK. What are the downsides?

Oh wait, he can also dispel links, do AoE damage, neutralize low vit targets with ease, occupy high vit targets for several minutes, and skip chunks of castles by jumping onto towers. Did I forget to mention that he's LESS susceptible to AD than LKs due to Breakfall? Finally, he can change weapon element at will. Is your guild actually pro enough to use B.S.S.? WATCH OUT, A 22K HP 20% DODGE EVERYTHING DARK ELEMENT USING AoE KICKFEST THAT DOES REASONABLE DAMAGE TO HALF YOUR GUILD JUST JUMPED IN OH GOD OK GUYS WE NEUTRALIZED HIM BUT OH NOOOO HERE COMES THE REST OF HIS GUILD, which is a realistic assessment of the TK ranker's performance. If you want to argue LK vs TK Ranker, keep in mind that LK's can't accomplish much without a weapon.

Guess who doesn't need one. Admittedly, FCP makes that a moot point.

Yeah, you're right. Much less useful, and much less meaty. You've proven both of those points with your thoroughly explained points. Continue, Charles. Show us the supremacy of the physical ninja!

tl;dr only one of us is actually backing any of the claims being made, while the other is using subtle perversion of words. Watching this Haelstrom guy revert to his true form WAS a great laugh. The kind of guy who will keep falling back, and falling back, holding one ambiguous point and demonstrating his own ignorance. You call me the troll, but you're the one who keeps pecking at the North Wind/Sharpshooting issue while refusing to actually acknowledge source information. Thanks, Salad! Ur da best.

[Novalmauge]

+1

I wish to see Ninja and Gunslinger brought out of the "Novelty" section. If it requires the addition of a rebirth or just a buff to the job bonus stats.

For Gunslinger, the last bonus is gained jLVL 64.

+4 STR, +1 AGI, +1 VIT, +2 INT, +9 DEX, +7 LUK.

This is opposed to the closest main class transcendent, Sniper, who at jLVL 70 have:

+4 STR, +11 AGI, +3 VIT, +5 INt, +14 DEX, +8 LUK.

Superior in every single way save STR and by far. How this could be handled, would be to make Gunslinger excel at some areas a bit more than Sniper and vice-versa; keep Snipers better overall at DEX, but give Gunslinger more AGI/VIT to compensate. Premise being, a Sniper would need extraordinary dexterity in order to utilize a bow so efficiently, but that a gun-wielder would likely be more agile, mobile, and hearty.

Ninja at jLVl 64 as well, gains the following:

+1 STR (despite their overall best WoE builds being physical ones), +8 AGI, +1 VIT, +5 INT, +6 DEX, +4 LUK.

Not really terrible, except again, two key stats for the most viable, dedicated WoE builds are only given a single status point, and what few stats that are shown some support are terribly so.

This is comparing to Stalker, closest I can grab, who at 70 get:

+9 STR, +11 AGI, +4 VIT, +3 INT, +12 DEX, +6 LUK.

The only poor jBonus a Stalker might point at is the INT; overall very solid job bonuses to fit the sheer versatility of the Stalker. But as for a Ninja?

The only thing caster can be decent at in WoE aside from being a super-Deluge, is bolt-locking an opponent, and that rewards you low survivability on top of it all. So their job bonus spread is very poorly made on what major stats are focused onto for a competitive Ninja at this stage.

thank you Haelstrom for providing me with the original source

Now base hp!
Ro has a look up table for 1st and 2nd classes (http://ro.doddlercon.com/misc/maxhp3.html) as for trans classes they have a natural 25% hp just for trans... if you don't believe me

this handy function gives Base HP:

var BASE_HP = 35;

BASE_HP += BASE_LEVEL * HP_JOB_B;

for (var i = 2; i <= BASE_LEVEL; i++) {
BASE_HP += Math.round(HP_JOB_A * i);
}

var MAX_HP = BASE_HP;

MAX_HP = Math.floor( MAX_HP * (1 + VIT * 0.01) );

MAX_HP += HP_MOD_A;

MAX_HP = Math.floor( MAX_HP * (1 + HP_MOD_B * 0.01) * TRANS_MOD );

Where:
HP_JOB_A: See the job modifier table
HP_JOB_B: The number in parenthesis, if any. Otherwise 5.
HP_MOD_A: Sum of additive modifiers
HP_MOD_B: Sum of multiplicative modifiers
TRANS_MOD: 1.25 for transcendent classes, 1 otherwise (where 25% trans comes from)

now... 25% doesn't seem like a lot.... but simply this is a big difference without the 'staple' equips/cards trans classes have access to.

now looking at the formula you can see that the vit modifier (1%) goes in before the trans mod, if not... I just told you...

this means trans classes get 25% more hp per vit than the extended...

so... comparable? not really...

There is one Unjust part of gunslinger/ninja.... its a 1st class so a simple buff to w/e would unbalance them further from the other 1st classes. Thats why I propose the rebirth suggestion, make them, as suggested by the thread creator, High Gunslinger/Ninja. Rather than QQ about them being to 'overpowered' make them have to work harder to become closer to the trans classes. Making them less of a "Novelty" and more viable.

I'm sure we who are for this are just a small part of the entire RO community that would like to see ninja/gunslinger WoE worthy, and adding them could possibly increase our small population.

There's always a possibility of future promotions to the extended classes (it's been hinted at in official blogs they're considering it for the future). So if any changes were made, I feel they'd need to be viewed on a temporary basis, with the understanding they would eventually be revoked were this the case.

I agree at least do it on a temporary basis, never know when gravity going to throw another curve ball.

[Haelstrom]

Woah, it seems like it's similar to Focused Arrow Strike!

Similar? Same?! Not?! Not same?! Not same skill!? No?!

[Rolls up newspaper.] You a bad Neryth! Bad!

You certainly enjoy pretending you didn't say certain things. Things like,

REPEATRABBLE

Already covered, read.

I see you've already dropped both the SLer and Gunslinger in this argument,

It's all you're bringing up. Please make some misinformed points about them too while you're at it.

choosing to only argue over the point that was left ambiguous enough for you to defend without looking like a fool.

Call someone a fool to make yourself seem wise, THE STRATEGIST APPROACH.

The point stands that I shredded your original post

Nope.

Anyways, if you think I'm doing this as a favour to Salad, sure. Think what you want.

Already done. You'd probably not even have a forum account if she hadn't gone to you begging for the defense she clearly can't provide of her own points, I say that's evidence enough.

However, that's just another logical fallacy to add to the list.

Anything that disagrees with you = a logical fallacy, what a logical fallacy!

Oh, and about meatiness.

22k HP, just as susceptible to AD as the LK. What are the downsides?

You seem to neglect the additional defense an LK assuredly can gain, along with the fact they can Berserk when near low health and over triple that number in health, effectively giving an LK a second wind, but alright, let's see your poorly formed points..

Oh wait, he can also dispel links,

Hwahahah! It's like.. the weak FSK can do other stuff!

do AoE damage,

What. The hell is this, World of Warcraft? No class in the game should be able to do that, ignoring the fact if you die to TR AoE's, you are the worst player ever or too low a level to matter.

neutralize low vit targets with ease,

What? Neutralize low vit- it's called OHKO my friend, learn the term well. Other classes don't need to "neutralize" them.

occupy high vit targets for several minutes,

You're going to cry about this, but yes, it has WoE and PVP issues.

In PVP and just 1-v-1, you funny.
In WoE, you seem to believe a Ranker can walk in, occupy a high vit target for several minutes, and the remainder of the guild/party (excluding the "occupied" individual themselves with a variety of means to prevent that from ever beginning) are going to completely ignore this. Not to mention, again, they can occupy one singular target for "several minutes."

Most other classes would gladly get rid of that magical feature if it means they could kill a singular target in several- rather, a single second.

Wait! They can!

and skip chunks of castles by jumping onto towers.

And increasing the job bonuses in a proportional way / etc. affects this how in the name of the lord now?

Did I forget to mention that he's LESS susceptible to AD than LKs due to Breakfall?

RNG possible dodge move is superior to a free continue with 3x a high end TR's max HP! You've opened my eyes.

Yeah, you're right. Much less useful, and much less meaty.

Why do I get the feeling we're talking about our sexual organs more than the classes at this point? Just to point it out: mine meatier and more useful, just because.

tl;dr only one of us is actually backing any of the claims being made, while the other is using subtle perversion of words.

I'm the former guy. Yeah.

Watching this Haelstrom guy revert to his true form WAS a great laugh.

Revert? Did I transform?!!

The kind of guy who will keep falling back, and falling back, holding one ambiguous point and demonstrating his own ignorance.

You mad!

You call me the troll, but you're the one who keeps pecking at the North Wind/Sharpshooting issue

You're the one who has been consistantly bringing that up, not me. I could honestly care less about North Wind or Sharpshooting.

while refusing to actually acknowledge source information.

Irrelevant source information =/= useful source information, like Noval's, which I give a subtle nod to.

Thanks, Salad! Ur da best.

You are indeed. Next time, try doing it yourself!

[Neryth]

Congratulations on selectively picking at your opponent's argument, ignoring everything valid and refusing to acknowledge any of your own errors while completely disregarding any source information (thanks Nova, that's a good idea) in favour of now picking at technicalities and wording of the two Wiki articles instead of looking at the half dozen similarities between them, that actually highlight how they're the same skill when you look at the coding and replace the values with variables.

GJ. Also, that was probably a run-on.

Good laughs, bro. You'd get destroyed in any debate, as you'd be ineffectively picking at actual solid points they've brought up, while they drove in to your weakspot and punched you in the nuts.

p.s., I haven't brought up the Gunslingers or SLers for quite a while, as you have had nothing to actually say about them in response to my initial counterpoints. Congratulations on providing false information. It's like I'm in 1984!

Finally, while this thread may have become a tribute to my own boredom, it has also become a tribute to either your willingness to troll at hardcore, 110% power, warp factor 11 for an extended period of time, or your own stupidity and ability to use logical fallacies to repeatedly discredit yourself.

[Haelstrom]

Congratulations on selectively picking at your opponent's argument, ignoring everything valid and refusing to acknowledge any of your own errors while completely disregarding any source information (thanks Nova, that's a good idea) in favour of now picking at technicalities and wording of the two Wiki articles instead of looking at the half dozen similarities between them, that actually highlight how they're the same skill when you look at the coding and replace the values with variables.

NOT.. THE SAME.. SKILL!

A WATER BALLOON DOES NOT A GRENADE FILLED WITH WATER MAKE REGARDLESS OF THEIR SIMILARITIES!

PLEASE BELIEVE ME!

Please believe me!

Incidentally, you've not addressed anything in this thread other than myself and one post. Hypocrisy must be delicious when it spews from your throat on a daily basis.

GJ. Also, that was probably a run-on.

Good laughs, bro. You'd get destroyed in any debate, as you'd be ineffectively picking at actual solid points they've brought up, while they drove in to your weakspot and punched you in the nuts.

My nuts are impervious to the factually incorrect and the irrelevant.

p.s., I haven't brought up the Gunslingers or SLers for quite a while,

You never did! You've made no relevant qualms regarding them at all, you've been going on about this Acid Demo / Vit argument like I insulted your mother.

as you have had nothing to actually say about them in response to my initial counterpoints. Congratulations on providing false information. It's like I'm in 1984!

You weren't born in 1984. Incidentally, nothing I have provided is false. Disagree with me and you are wrong. [Jut.]

Now, please. I would honestly love discussing with you in a civil manner the actual topic versus what your friend Salad got angsty over, but if this is all we can do, I might end up having to just respond to everything you say with "You mad." I don't want to do that. Really.

I'd feel mean.

Edit!!

Finally, while this thread may have become a tribute to my own boredom, it has also become a tribute to either your willingness to troll at hardcore, 110% power, warp factor 11 for an extended period of time, or your own stupidity and ability to use logical fallacies to repeatedly discredit yourself.

You mad!

Regardless, I'd rather not get this topic locked solely due to "arguing" with you, as delicious as it may be. We can take this to private messages, IM, etc. if you'd like, if you're that bored. But I'll not engage in discussion with you here any further.